--- Log opened Mon Oct 08 00:00:59 2018 20181008 01:05:09-!- sevu [~sevu@p5485558A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20181008 01:11:39-!- Narrat [~Narrat@p5DCC6672.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Quit: They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance.] 20181008 01:51:07-!- hk238 [~kvirc@unaffiliated/hk238] has joined #wesnoth 20181008 03:13:57-!- iwaim [~iwaim@rasteenie.alib.jp] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20181008 03:14:45-!- iwaim_ [~iwaim@rasteenie.alib.jp] has joined #wesnoth 20181008 03:27:51-!- shiki [~sevu@p5485501E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20181008 03:31:19-!- sevu [~sevu@p5485558A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20181008 03:46:20-!- shiki [~sevu@p5485501E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20181008 03:47:15-!- buhman [~rewt@c-73-162-194-50.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #wesnoth 20181008 03:52:35< buhman> has anyone used wesnoth as a fancy virtual tabletop for role-playing games? I think it would be cool to do WML-assisted dungeon mastering. 20181008 03:52:56< celticminstrel> o.O 20181008 03:53:15< celticminstrel> That sounds like a very crazy idea... 20181008 04:04:27-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth 20181008 04:25:06<+wesdiscordbot> there's a DnD mod already, lol 20181008 04:29:33< celticminstrel> That's probably different from what buhman is talking about though? 20181008 04:29:42< celticminstrel> I can't say for sure mind you. 20181008 04:34:33< buhman> where's the dnd mod? 20181008 04:36:31< aeth> buhman: yes 20181008 04:36:44< aeth> buhman: I made a tabletop RPG style mod for Wesnoth 20181008 04:37:07< celticminstrel> ...oh yeah, that does qualify as what he described at least to a degree, doesn't it. 20181008 04:37:25< celticminstrel> BTW, have you tried it in 1.14? 20181008 04:37:25< aeth> It was made completely unusable in the new version (1.14? or was it one version before that?) because it only barely ran on the then-current engine and the new water tanked the performance. 20181008 04:37:35< celticminstrel> Ah, I see. 20181008 04:37:42< aeth> didn't try it in 1.14, gave up with the 1.13 dev 20181008 04:37:49< celticminstrel> So IOW disabling the water might make it usable? 20181008 04:38:09< aeth> possibly? 20181008 04:38:11< celticminstrel> There's a preference for that. 20181008 04:38:26< aeth> But 'barely ran' on my i7-4790k computer doesn't mean it'll run acceptably on anyone else's 20181008 04:38:32< celticminstrel> Fair enough. 20181008 04:38:34< aeth> There are a handful of computers that can run CPU-bound Wesnoth stuff faster 20181008 04:39:03< buhman> aeth: what made this so intense? 20181008 04:39:13< aeth> I can lazy-load the units so they only show up in the region you're in, but the map itself takes a lot of CPU due to its size and the total units doesn't seem to be as much of a problem as the concentration of units in places like cities and fortresses 20181008 04:39:17< buhman> also I'm interested in at least reading the code, even if it doesn't work 20181008 04:39:21< aeth> buhman: It is an extremely large map 20181008 04:39:28< celticminstrel> It does work FTR. 20181008 04:39:34< aeth> It has several hundred units, too 20181008 04:39:39< celticminstrel> I think the performance problem stems mainly from the map size? 20181008 04:39:45< aeth> mostly 20181008 04:39:57< celticminstrel> So if you used a different map with the same code, maybe it would still be usable. 20181008 04:40:03< aeth> I think all I'd need to do to port it to 1.14 (but that doesn't mean it would run) would be to rename the renamed desert units 20181008 04:40:20< celticminstrel> (Or nearly the same code, if some of the code references specific map locations.) 20181008 04:40:33< aeth> celticminstrel: it doesn't really seem like it's a good idea to try to get it to work if the very basic proof of concept barely runs, though 20181008 04:40:43< aeth> celticminstrel: there's pages of additional planned features 20181008 04:40:50< aeth> all of those will have some cost 20181008 04:41:00< hk238> maybe that add-on would be a good way to find out places of code that are most expensive for performance 20181008 04:41:00< hk238> :D 20181008 04:42:30< hk238> also is the performance hit because of custom scripts or because of hardwired stuff working with too much things around? 20181008 04:43:50< aeth> I think it's mainly because Wesnoth is a very CPU-driven game. 20181008 04:44:24< hk238> That's probably at the core of the issue, and there's probably the thread business? Someone talked about wesnoth running only on 1 thread, I don't know if that's true 20181008 04:44:31< hk238> but still it would be nice to know 20181008 04:44:52< aeth> I think it's also because Wesnoth is designed for one map with dozens of units, not a larger world. Iirc, my map is 400x200 so it runs in the editor, but it isn't actually creatable in the editor, which goes up to 200x200. I had to edit it by hand 20181008 04:44:54< hk238> if you have like some sort of recursive search scripts that get very heavy when there are lots of units in some area concentrated 20181008 04:45:08< hk238> or if it's like the wesnoth engine having problems.. like have you identified that? 20181008 04:45:53< hk238> hmm would it be terrible to chop it to smaller sections with boundaries where you cross from one place to another? 20181008 04:46:07< hk238> could also create a portal system like 'you can this gate to travel to other parts of the world' 20181008 04:46:15< aeth> The problem is that it's completely open. 20181008 04:46:30< aeth> Players don't even have to travel together, and can even change teams if the GM lets them 20181008 04:46:44< aeth> and there are teleporters to many key areas (mostly towns) that players can take 20181008 04:46:49< hk238> oh so you cant have different players in different sections? 20181008 04:47:13< aeth> They don't have to teleport together, so it's likely that they will be in different sections, at least initially, since they will probably take several turns to teleport to a destination unless the positioning and turn order is perfect 20181008 04:47:33< aeth> And removing fast travel would be a larger mistake because then they'd never leave the starting area 20181008 04:48:40< hk238> I think it would be a good starting point to try and identify sections of code that cause the heaviest hit for performance 20181008 04:48:54< hk238> and to think about ways to circumvent the load, like you mentioned the lazy loading 20181008 04:49:14< aeth> Any engine-level optimizations would only really benefit this sort of game, though. And any my-end optimizations would be much more painful in Lua than in a real programming language. 20181008 04:49:16< hk238> but I guess those features are problematic :o 20181008 04:49:44< aeth> (It's not just Lua: it's Lua with WML mixed in...) 20181008 04:49:44< hk238> you don't think lua is a real programming language? :D 20181008 04:50:06< aeth> Lua isn't a language designed for optimizing code. Lua is a language designed for scripting something that you've written in C. 20181008 04:50:48< aeth> You have LuaJIT to optimize to some extent, but that's magically optimizing, not explicitly laying things out 20181008 04:51:00< hk238> fair enough :d 20181008 04:51:00< aeth> (and I don't think Wesnoth uses LuaJIT) 20181008 04:53:00< celticminstrel> It doesn't. 20181008 04:53:16< celticminstrel> And won't, unless LuaJIT is ever updated to 5.3.whatever. 20181008 04:53:37< celticminstrel> (Not that it will if it is, mind you.) 20181008 04:53:46< hk238> but even if it wasn't designed for that, you could still try and identify the biggest problem areas and see what you can do about it 20181008 04:53:47< celticminstrel> (Just that if it was updated, then it could be considered.) 20181008 04:54:16< buhman> aeth: do you have this uploaded anywhere? 20181008 04:54:58< hk238> I mean based on this conversation it seems that it's not clear whether it's your custom scripts or the wesnoth engine that causes most of the load, identifying that might be a starting point for optimization. And if it's the engine then I guess it's not possible, but only circumventing is possible 20181008 04:55:19< hk238> you could also consider something like making several parallel worlds that have the quality that the party has to travel to them together 20181008 04:55:31< hk238> so you have like 4 100x100 maps 20181008 04:55:59< hk238> but maybe that's not much different from the othe rversions of separate regions 20181008 04:57:08< aeth> buhman: https://github.com/Aethaeryn/wesnoth-umc/tree/master/Aethaeryns_Mod 20181008 04:57:21< aeth> As I said, though, it won't run without renaming all of the desert units 20181008 04:57:29< aeth> Should be fairly easy. It's almost entirely in Lua 20181008 04:58:38< aeth> hk238: I think that the main problem is that getting it to run well on the Wesnoth engine (which might not even exist soon if Wesnoth gets ported to Godot) is probably more work than actually making a separate, standalone game. 20181008 04:59:04< celticminstrel> There are two problems with that parenthetical. 20181008 04:59:24< celticminstrel> 1. I don't think "soon" is a reasonable descriptor here. It could take quite some time. 20181008 04:59:54< celticminstrel> 2. It doesn't necessarily mean the original engine will cease to exist or even stop being maintained. 20181008 04:59:57< hk238> yeah... it could be. it could also be that there are some recursive very heavy scripts that cause a large chunk of the load and then optimizing those would speed up performance. I mean it's kind of wishful thinking 20181008 04:59:58< hk238> :D 20181008 05:00:11< aeth> celticminstrel: This could take a long time, too. And I think that even if 95% of UMC was trivially portable to Godot, an almost-entirely-Lua MP scenario that's practically a total conversion mod in everything but graphical assets would be one of the harder things to port. 20181008 05:00:23< aeth> And since it's MP, there probably wouldn't be the pop for the people who stayed on Wesnoth 1.x 20181008 05:00:42< celticminstrel> aeth: If the Lua API is mostly retained it might actually be one of the easier things to port. 20181008 05:01:10< aeth> Yes, although not everything can be done in Lua (although more might be doable in Lua now then when I started) so there's a lot of WML tables 20181008 05:01:25< celticminstrel> Sure. 20181008 05:01:31-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has quit [Quit: And lo! The computer falls into a deep sleep, to awake again some other day!] 20181008 05:06:21< hk238> what dose the summon do? 20181008 05:06:24< hk238> *does 20181008 05:30:27< hk238> I just took a quick glance at the filter.lua, I don't know what it does based on this, but it seems to check whether stuff is on some terrain hex, and whether there's some unit there, it seems to involve some menu item, and it's also filtering adjacent locations 20181008 05:30:52< hk238> so I don't know the specifics but that could heavy depending on what it does 20181008 05:31:15< hk238> like if you're checking all 200x200 hexes for some summon possibility, and then checking the adjacent hexes for each one of them, and then deciding whether to have a menu item there 20181008 05:31:42< hk238> you could also refactor that into create the menu item, then if it's activated, check if there are valid summons available thus reducing the amount of filtering exponentially 20181008 05:31:53< hk238> but that's just a guess 20181008 06:18:16-!- Tobbi [~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi] has joined #wesnoth 20181008 06:32:43< aeth> hk238: spawning is done in two ways... the GM (controlling two sides, one friendly and one hostile) can spawn whatever whenever and pretty much all of the enemies except for some preset settlements are spawned this way. (most of the friendly NPCs are already there, though) 20181008 06:33:09< aeth> hk238: the other way to spawn is summoning, where a unit marked as summoner (usually some magical unit) can spawn a unit next to it for its cost in HP 20181008 06:33:40< aeth> thematically probably makes the most sense for the undead magic line, which is where I originally had the feature implemented 20181008 06:34:03< aeth> summoners also have regenerate to make up for the constant loss in HP 20181008 06:34:21< aeth> They're essentially the bosses/mini-bosses. I probably should cap how many summons they can have active at a time. 20181008 06:34:32< aeth> I don't think the summon menu item impacts performance, though 20181008 06:35:15< aeth> The only summoners on the map by default afaik are the two leaders for the GM sides (friendly/hostile) as ancient liches. And the rest would probably be killed pretty soon after spawning 20181008 06:39:42< hk238> okay.. It seems interesting too :o 20181008 06:40:13-!- Tobbi [~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 20181008 07:36:24-!- cyphase [~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase] has joined #wesnoth 20181008 07:37:50-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth 20181008 08:16:03-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87.static.drei.at] has joined #wesnoth 20181008 08:44:38-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy] 20181008 10:36:31-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87.static.drei.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20181008 12:44:48-!- synthpopisback [~synthpopi@cpe-2606-A000-7947-5000-C86-D7B3-2A4A-C12E.dyn6.twc.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20181008 13:50:16-!- Haudegen [~quassel@212-186-77-29.static.upcbusiness.at] has joined #wesnoth 20181008 14:25:18-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth 20181008 14:47:33<+wesdiscordbot> Gunship released their new album three days ago wtf 20181008 15:17:33-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy] 20181008 15:21:16-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has joined #wesnoth 20181008 15:23:29-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth 20181008 15:27:25<+wesdiscordbot> any suggestions for Electronic music to use for a Wesnoth campaign? something that fits a strategy game, and obviously something that can be used in an UMC 20181008 15:27:52<+wesdiscordbot> im thinking of making a futuristic era (or campaign) and, well, gotta have some futuristic-sounding music 20181008 15:39:43-!- Haudegen [~quassel@212-186-77-29.static.upcbusiness.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20181008 15:47:50-!- ToBeCloud [uid51591@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has joined #wesnoth 20181008 15:54:13<+wesdiscordbot> Here is some music you could use: https://zero-project.gr/ 20181008 15:54:56<+wesdiscordbot> It's under Creative Commons Attribution license, and thus can be used in UMC. (Note that you need to mention use of this music in credits.) 20181008 15:55:55<+wesdiscordbot> mk 20181008 15:56:00<+wesdiscordbot> and i'll obviously credit 20181008 15:56:33<+wesdiscordbot> How futuristic? 20181008 16:41:22-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20181008 16:41:28-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20181008 16:53:33-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy] 20181008 16:59:58-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87.static.drei.at] has joined #wesnoth 20181008 17:06:09-!- hk238 [~kvirc@unaffiliated/hk238] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 5.0.0 Aria http://www.kvirc.net/] 20181008 17:17:08-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20181008 17:17:14-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20181008 17:34:18<+wesdiscordbot> well, beyond modern-day, that's for sure 20181008 17:36:40<+wesdiscordbot> Cyberpunk or Wh40k is closer? 20181008 17:37:13<+wesdiscordbot> Hello. 20181008 17:37:18<+wesdiscordbot> Hi. 20181008 17:52:38<+wesdiscordbot> kinda both? 20181008 17:52:44<+wesdiscordbot> maybe closer to cyberpunk 20181008 17:52:58<+wesdiscordbot> can you also suggest sprite resources that i could use/frankenstein? 20181008 17:55:26-!- Tobbi [~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi] has joined #wesnoth 20181008 17:57:29<+wesdiscordbot> Hmm, i rearly come across good sprites in general, not to mention futuristic ones. Inferno8 never finished futuristic project had some preety good ones but its very deep future. And i belive it's only possible to download it from polish site (im not 100% sure becouse im not realy active on .org). 20181008 18:07:40<+wesdiscordbot> I believe there was a project somewhere to do era based on Wh40k: DoW. Maybe there would be some interesting sprites. 20181008 18:13:31-!- claymore [~claymore@unaffiliated/claymore] has joined #wesnoth 20181008 18:20:21-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20181008 18:20:26-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20181008 18:29:50-!- Tobbi [~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 20181008 18:46:25-!- Tobbi [~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi] has joined #wesnoth 20181008 18:51:26-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20181008 18:51:32-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20181008 19:07:27-!- Tobbi [~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 20181008 19:36:19-!- Tobbi [~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi] has joined #wesnoth 20181008 19:45:46-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20181008 20:09:12-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has joined #wesnoth 20181008 20:34:39-!- ToBeCloud [uid51591@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 20181008 20:52:54-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87.static.drei.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20181008 21:05:28-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20181008 21:05:34-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20181008 21:12:58-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20181008 21:13:04-!- janebot [~Gambot@unaffiliated/gambit/bot/gambot] has joined #wesnoth 20181008 21:15:52-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87.static.drei.at] has joined #wesnoth 20181008 21:25:09-!- ToBeCloud [uid51591@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has joined #wesnoth 20181008 21:27:00-!- claymore [~claymore@unaffiliated/claymore] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20181008 22:24:47-!- Tobbi [~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 20181008 22:41:43-!- noy [~Noy@wesnoth/developer/noy] has quit [Quit: noy] 20181008 22:53:25<+wesdiscordbot> hi! 20181008 22:53:34<+wesdiscordbot> what is everyone up to? 20181008 22:58:27<+wesdiscordbot> i just woke up from a dream 20181008 22:58:44-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87.static.drei.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20181008 22:58:46<+wesdiscordbot> there was a talking tree and talking rats and mice 20181008 22:59:14<+wesdiscordbot> the mice told me that the tree should be set on fire but i was very angry at them after that 20181008 23:36:12<+wesdiscordbot> interesting 20181008 23:38:42<+wesdiscordbot> @Not Hamel 20181008 23:39:02<+wesdiscordbot> yes? 20181008 23:39:16<+wesdiscordbot> iirc i told you that Konrad of HTTT was based on Konrad Adenauer 20181008 23:39:32<+wesdiscordbot> and you seemed to accept that 20181008 23:39:49<+wesdiscordbot> did you seriouslybelieve that? 20181008 23:40:22<+wesdiscordbot> i didn't really know much about the guy, so i was unsure 20181008 23:40:32<+wesdiscordbot> D: 20181008 23:40:35<+wesdiscordbot> are you american 20181008 23:41:51<+wesdiscordbot> yes, why? 20181008 23:42:48<+wesdiscordbot> just because you do not know konrad adenauer 😄 20181008 23:45:17<+wesdiscordbot> oh, alright 20181008 23:45:19<+wesdiscordbot> who is he? 20181008 23:45:56<+wesdiscordbot> The Restorer of West Germany after the ruinous reign of Asheviere! 20181008 23:46:27<+wesdiscordbot> >_> 20181008 23:46:42<+wesdiscordbot> i mean, he is either in your history books or he isnt, and in america i guess he isnt 20181008 23:47:08<+wesdiscordbot> alright 20181008 23:47:19<+wesdiscordbot> just read the first paragraphs of his wiki page 20181008 23:47:24<+wesdiscordbot> seems like an interesting guy 20181008 23:48:15<+wesdiscordbot> definitely. you could easily foresee post-ww2 germany goign down the same path as much of east-central europe 20181008 23:48:26<+wesdiscordbot> but he had a plan in mind 20181008 23:48:54<+wesdiscordbot> it is so bizarre 20181008 23:48:58<+wesdiscordbot> how germany recovered 20181008 23:49:25<+wesdiscordbot> it is a miracle 20181008 23:49:48<+wesdiscordbot> and with any miracle you should be thinking, 20181008 23:49:53<+wesdiscordbot> let's make more of that miracle 20181008 23:50:33<+wesdiscordbot> but... it is difficult to do. it probably just requires some specific circumstances that are difficult to specify 20181008 23:50:51<+wesdiscordbot> interesting 20181008 23:51:31<+wesdiscordbot> apologies for my lack of knowledge on him, i do try to study european history and 20th century history a lot, but i somehow missed him 20181008 23:51:32<+wesdiscordbot> my bad 20181008 23:52:11<+wesdiscordbot> it's not on you, it's on what the various parts of the world who want to learn various lessons of ww2 wish to learn 20181008 23:53:38<+wesdiscordbot> interesting 20181008 23:54:05-!- ToBeCloud [uid51591@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 20181008 23:54:18<+wesdiscordbot> i do have my biases, but i do try to be open and hear history from all sides 20181008 23:59:24<+wesdiscordbot> so thanks for informing me on that guy 20181008 23:59:34<+wesdiscordbot> apologies for late or delayed responses --- Log closed Tue Oct 09 00:00:00 2018