--- Log opened Fri Nov 16 00:00:36 2018
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20181116 00:23:44<+wesdiscordbot> ❤️
20181116 00:24:11<+wesdiscordbot> How are u flame heart? 😊 🔥❤
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20181116 08:08:22< markand> hello
20181116 08:08:37< markand> I've just stambled accross the haldric project on github
20181116 08:08:53< markand> so developers are rewriting the project from scratch in godot?
20181116 08:11:46<+wesdiscordbot> Project Haldric is an experiment to determine if such a rewrite is feasible. Some of the developers (not all) are working on it.
20181116 08:13:17< markand> interesting
20181116 08:13:31< markand> so there are probably reasons for switching, what are those?
20181116 08:13:55<+wesdiscordbot> The current codebase has a lot of problems.
20181116 08:14:27<+wesdiscordbot> The Wesnoth codebase suffers from a severe NIH syndrome, with a custom game engine, GUI toolkit, and even markup language.
20181116 08:15:08<+wesdiscordbot> Developing them all requires much more manpower than we have. The result is that we have severely fallen behind technologically (for example, we're still using software rendering).
20181116 08:15:21< buhman> wasn't that fixed in 1.15?
20181116 08:15:45<+wesdiscordbot> There have also been severe design mistakes, such as using WML (our custom markup language) for scripting. Markup languages fit very poorly for that kind of use.
20181116 08:18:10<+wesdiscordbot> Vultraz attempted to implement hardware rendering in 1.15, but it failed. His attempt broke stuff all over the place and we couldn't figure out what exactly caused the regressions (part of the problem is that when regressions emerged, he just kept piling more commits on top instead of stopping; as a result, in the current state of the abandoned development branch, even if we managed to fix something, we probably wouldn't even
20181116 08:18:10<+wesdiscordbot> know due to all the other regressions which have happened since the original regressing commit).
20181116 08:18:53<+wesdiscordbot> 1.15 has now been reverted back to software rendering.
20181116 08:19:37<+wesdiscordbot> What's the difference between software and hardware rendering?
20181116 08:19:40< markand> okay :)
20181116 08:19:50<+wesdiscordbot> Like, what does it do? ._.
20181116 08:20:09< markand> hardware benefits from being rendered by the GPU
20181116 08:20:39< markand> software means, it's the CPU that does drawing and then gives it to the screen
20181116 08:20:59< markand> more you have GPU working with graphical stuff, more the CPU can do things else
20181116 08:21:43<+wesdiscordbot> In short, hardware rendering means using the graphics processing unit (GPU) for rendering. We'd upload each sprite as a texture, then tell the GPU to draw two triangles for each sprite. The GPU is designed for 3D rendering, but 2D is just a subset of 3D and can be rendered in the same way.
20181116 08:22:32<+wesdiscordbot> And software rendering means that we blit the sprites manually in software. Behind the scenes, the GPU driver then uploads the resulting screen contents as one large texture and renders two triangles.
20181116 08:22:48< buhman> did the gpu branch actually do texture mapping?
20181116 08:23:08<+wesdiscordbot> So it is some kind of shifting work around?
20181116 08:23:46<+wesdiscordbot> @Konrad2 Yes. Software rendering performs almost all the work on the CPU, whereas hardware rendering does most of it on the GPU.
20181116 08:24:09<+wesdiscordbot> The GPU is significantly more powerful and efficient, so hardware rendering is superior.
20181116 08:24:10<+wesdiscordbot> Thanks for the explanation.
20181116 08:24:40< markand> and what do you think about godot? is it satisfying to develop with?
20181116 08:24:49<+wesdiscordbot> buhman: Yes, the abandoned branch used texture mapping.
20181116 08:25:10<+wesdiscordbot> markand: I don't have an opinion because I'm not working on the rewrite.
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20181116 08:35:19<+wesdiscordbot> @Konrad2 To add to that a little, hardware rendering is what's done with DirectX, OpenGL, etc.
20181116 08:37:16<+wesdiscordbot> Sorry, but I do not know what that is. :D
20181116 08:37:21<+wesdiscordbot> ah
20181116 08:37:22<+wesdiscordbot> xD
20181116 08:37:31<+wesdiscordbot> Computers are magic from my point of view.
20181116 08:37:50<+wesdiscordbot> Same with software and programs.
20181116 08:38:41<+wesdiscordbot> usually one of the things on Steam's minimum/recommended requirements is what DirectX/OpenGL versions the game requires, so that's how I see it a lot.
20181116 08:40:49< buhman> I'd be interested in learning how less expressiveness in gdscript compares to the less dynamicness in c++, as far as productivity goes, or if those are factors are dwarfed by the (presumably) nicer APIs that godot provides
20181116 08:41:42<+wesdiscordbot> The API definitely matters much more than the programming language. No question about it.
20181116 08:43:51<+wesdiscordbot> buhman: It's also still a possibility that Haldric/2.0 would go back to C# once the prototype is complete (and if it's successful). We originally started using C#, but ran into Godot crashes even on Windows.
20181116 08:44:34<+wesdiscordbot> which wasn't entirely surprising, given they themselves say their C# support is an alpha state
20181116 08:46:51< buhman> Pentarctagon: was there a specific reason for not using the C++ API?
20181116 08:48:04<+wesdiscordbot> I also haven't been much involved in the coding, mostly since I'm not really interested in gdscript, but pretty much everything I heard has sounded like using gdscript features provided by Godot is easier and faster than writing those features into Wesnoth's engine.
20181116 08:48:40<+wesdiscordbot> as far as C++, there is some C++ being used/will be used to supplement some features Godot lacks.
20181116 08:49:06<+wesdiscordbot> we use https://github.com/Beliaar/godot-yaml-asset for reading yaml, for example
20181116 08:49:23< buhman> I imagine it's inevitable if exposing a (possibly-revised) lua UMC api is desired
20181116 08:49:45<+wesdiscordbot> and need to implement lua and mysql support ourselves in C++
20181116 08:50:21<+wesdiscordbot> and yes, the new UMC API is lua
20181116 08:50:41< buhman> heh, binary blobs in a git repo
20181116 08:50:49<+wesdiscordbot> yeah >.>
20181116 08:51:08<+wesdiscordbot> oh well
20181116 08:52:02<+wesdiscordbot> also the UMC API in 2.0 is pretty much a replacement from 1.x's, rather than just revising anything.
20181116 08:52:38< buhman> replacement means everything is different, or everything is the same?
20181116 08:52:54<+wesdiscordbot> the goal of that being to keep a separation of things like unit type definitions(yaml) from logic(lua), whereas WML mixes those
20181116 08:53:20< buhman> yeah it would be really cool if this were separated better, like jyrkive implied
20181116 08:54:00<+wesdiscordbot> I wouldn't rule out perhaps lua API functions being the same, but there's isn't any goal in compatibility between 1.x and 2.0.
20181116 08:54:01<+wesdiscordbot> I didn't intentionally imply anything about unit definitions needing to be separated from logic.
20181116 08:54:12<+wesdiscordbot> Although I agree that separating them is a good idea.
20181116 08:58:07<+wesdiscordbot> Angry Birds uses Lua for both logic and configuration (but we had configuration in separate files).
20181116 09:31:24< markand> Lua sucks
20181116 09:31:58< markand> or anyone who would like to have headaches should use Lua
20181116 09:32:11<+wesdiscordbot> Having worked on Angry Birds and Angry Birds Stella, which are almost entirely written in Lua, I disagree.
20181116 09:32:25<+wesdiscordbot> I like Lua. It's one of my favorite scripting languages.
20181116 09:32:50< markand> I have used it in my application as extension language and I hated it
20181116 09:33:17< markand> no retro compatibility everything can break, so unless you stick with a precise version, you'll have a dozens of #if def
20181116 09:33:40< markand> if you stick with a specific version, you'll have to be sure there is no vulnerabilities and you must carry the documentation with it
20181116 09:34:14< markand> almost all external modules in Lua are either outdated or not compatible with your favorite Lua version (because of the points above)
20181116 09:34:27<+wesdiscordbot> We did stick with one specific version. And all our own Lua code is obviously trusted, and thus vulnerabilities aren't a concern.
20181116 09:34:57< markand> I talk about vulnerabilities/bugs in Lua code itself, not yours :)
20181116 09:35:35<+wesdiscordbot> Vulnerabilities in Lua itself only matter if you run untrusted Lua code from an external source (such as from a Wesnoth add-on).
20181116 09:36:19< markand> then the weirdness of lua, no continue (break and goto exist, goto, GOTO :|), array start at 1, strange ~= operator (everybody use !=), no real unicode support, no real regex support
20181116 09:37:12< markand> if someone wants to add Lua to its game, I really advise to reconsider the option ;)
20181116 09:37:34<+wesdiscordbot> Lack of continue, Unicode and full regex weren't problems for us.
20181116 09:37:48<+wesdiscordbot> I like arrays starting from 1, it's more intuitive IMHO.
20181116 09:38:08<+wesdiscordbot> Using ~= is abnormal, but it's just different syntax. Not a big deal.
20181116 09:38:17<+wesdiscordbot> Going to a meeting now.
20181116 09:52:36<+wesdiscordbot> I'm back.
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20181116 09:54:28< markand> that was a short meeting, I would like all to be as short
20181116 09:55:29<+wesdiscordbot> It's just our daily Scrum meeting.
20181116 09:55:54<+wesdiscordbot> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrum_(software_development)#Daily_Scrum
20181116 09:57:58< markand> yeah I know what a daily scrum is :)
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20181116 13:30:55< celmin|sleep> (Why is haldric using yaml... :| )
20181116 13:31:16< celmin|sleep> BTW, wasn't someone looking into maybe making a new Lua API to GUI2? Was that buhman or someone else?
20181116 13:31:23<+wesdiscordbot> What's wrong with YAML? It's a good markup language.
20181116 13:31:30< markand> :|
20181116 13:35:04< celmin|sleep> Bukkit used it, it was annoying how it hated tabs.
20181116 13:35:25< celmin|sleep> Though I guess you can always use the braced syntax and then have as many tabs as you want.
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20181116 13:53:18< markand> https://bisqwit.iki.fi/jutut/away.html
20181116 13:56:32<+wesdiscordbot> xD
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20181116 17:14:21<+wesdiscordbot> Bukkit? Isn't that used for some minecraft mods?
20181116 17:34:20<+wesdiscordbot> Idk about mods but it is used in normal minecraft servers yeah
20181116 17:36:35<+wesdiscordbot> Minecraft was so fun oh man, I loved pvp and redstone
20181116 17:36:48<+wesdiscordbot> been so long ever since i played
20181116 17:39:09<+wesdiscordbot> But eh i dont play video games anymore, unless my friends request/invite me to
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20181116 19:21:30<+wesdiscordbot> I'm a bum but I finally finished my video
20181116 19:24:14<+wesdiscordbot> my upload schedule is a joke
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--- Log closed Sat Nov 17 00:00:37 2018