--- Log opened Thu Feb 28 00:00:16 2019 20190228 00:22:37-!- Tobbi [~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20190228 01:01:41-!- mthe878 [~mthe@unaffiliated/mthe] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20190228 01:41:05<+wesdiscordbot> 't'has, indeed 20190228 02:10:34-!- mthe878 [~mthe@unaffiliated/mthe] has joined #wesnoth 20190228 02:46:17-!- celmin|sleep is now known as celticminstrel 20190228 04:41:09-!- celticminstrel is now known as celmin|sleep 20190228 04:41:17-!- mthe878 [~mthe@unaffiliated/mthe] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20190228 06:30:15-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth 20190228 06:51:43-!- mthe878 [~mthe@unaffiliated/mthe] has joined #wesnoth 20190228 07:59:45<+wesdiscordbot> Wesnoth Ladder is shut down because I had to actually play with the people who still Ladder. Don't @me. That sever cost me $20 a month for the past 10 years. 20190228 08:20:14-!- Tobbi [~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi] has joined #wesnoth 20190228 08:22:36-!- mthe878 [~mthe@unaffiliated/mthe] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20190228 08:26:15<+wesdiscordbot> Uh I don't get the reason but ok 20190228 08:27:01-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87.static.drei.at] has joined #wesnoth 20190228 08:30:38-!- mthe878 [~mthe@unaffiliated/mthe] has joined #wesnoth 20190228 08:40:32-!- mthe878 [~mthe@unaffiliated/mthe] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20190228 08:53:30-!- Tobbi [~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 20190228 12:16:46-!- hay207 [~hay207@41.235.216.224] has joined #wesnoth 20190228 12:19:26< hay207> Hi guys, i got libpng warning: iCCP: known incorrect sRGB profile, error replay: calculated movement destination 20190228 12:19:46< hay207> while playing/observing isar 20190228 12:19:53< hay207> with no mods 20190228 12:19:54<+wesdiscordbot> You can ignore that warning. 20190228 12:20:43<+wesdiscordbot> The warning is quite difficult to avoid (and it's quite stupid that libpng prints that warning by default, with no way to disable it). 20190228 12:20:57< hay207> It's displayed in game not terminal 20190228 12:21:46< hay207> Ok, i click ignore all then 20190228 12:23:31< hay207> Why then mv destination 's different than original 20190228 12:25:19-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87.static.drei.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20190228 12:25:47< Soliton> if you've got an OOS error you need to provide lots more info about what you're playing, with what addons, what the first OOS error was, what other players are doing. 20190228 12:27:23< hay207> Just a sec 20190228 12:30:04< hay207> I am observing an isar with no mods 20190228 12:30:24< hay207> I think only me get oos error 20190228 12:34:33< hay207> I have installed version 1.14.5 deb package 20190228 12:40:17< hay207> In steam, this isnot occuring, 20190228 12:40:47< hay207> I will try installing the full 1.14 package now 20190228 12:40:55< Soliton> what addons do you have installed? 20190228 12:41:10< hay207> 20 addons 20190228 12:48:56< hay207> Can i run wesnoth from safe mode? 20190228 12:51:51< hay207> i try another user account with zero addons 20190228 12:52:17-!- hay207 [~hay207@41.235.216.224] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20190228 13:16:21-!- hay207 [~hay207@41.235.216.224] has joined #wesnoth 20190228 13:17:21< hay207> Ok, here's my latest findings, i deleted addons one at a time and found the oos error in this addon 20190228 13:17:34< hay207> battle for the rings era 20190228 13:23:34-!- celmin|sleep is now known as celmin|away 20190228 13:30:40< Soliton> likely it modifies some mainline units. 20190228 13:31:37<+wesdiscordbot> You can report it in their thread as well: https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=49377 20190228 13:39:39-!- madmax28_ [~madmax28@2001-4dd6-e1e8-0-ba27-ebff-febc-e0cb.ipv6dyn.netcologne.de] has joined #wesnoth 20190228 13:40:13< hay207> Ok, reported 20190228 13:40:51-!- madmax28 [~madmax28@xdsl-87-78-156-157.nc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20190228 13:42:56-!- Haudegen [~quassel@212-186-77-29.static.upcbusiness.at] has joined #wesnoth 20190228 14:05:34-!- hay207 [~hay207@41.235.216.224] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!] 20190228 16:39:02-!- Tobbi [~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi] has joined #wesnoth 20190228 17:27:34<+wesdiscordbot> Do we have any figures about how much luck is accepted as 'luck' for a range of numbers? 20190228 17:28:09<+wesdiscordbot> Like, +-10% luck if we are talking about 1000 damage. Or +-1% luck for 1000000 damage. 20190228 17:29:50<+wesdiscordbot> number of hits, not dmg 20190228 17:31:16<+wesdiscordbot> you might even reach several +-10's of percentage off of expected value for even a hundred hits 20190228 17:31:51<+wesdiscordbot> but if you get to 1000 generally it'll be close to 0% 20190228 17:31:57<+wesdiscordbot> say, 1-2% off 20190228 17:36:00<+wesdiscordbot> I'm asking because of this: https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?p=638846#p638846 And because I've ended a scenario just now with 17% luck. 😅 20190228 17:37:14<+wesdiscordbot> yes I know 20190228 17:37:26<+wesdiscordbot> you can play around with this if you like 20190228 17:37:27<+wesdiscordbot> http://digitalfirst.bfwpub.com/stats_applet/stats_applet_10_prob.html 20190228 17:38:13<+wesdiscordbot> take it with a grain of salt, I don't know what rng that app uses 20190228 17:38:38<+wesdiscordbot> It's a fun game. xD 20190228 17:38:46<+wesdiscordbot> I just ran one for example, and it was off by 9% 20190228 17:38:50<+wesdiscordbot> with 100 tosses 20190228 17:39:17<+wesdiscordbot> so the corresponding thing you would get in wesnoth would be that you might hit 9% more or less than you expect 20190228 17:39:34<+wesdiscordbot> and depending on which units those land on, you could get a damage % difference of more than that even 20190228 17:39:55<+wesdiscordbot> Is then the wesnoth statistic table even useful as it only shows damage instead of hits? 20190228 17:40:20<+wesdiscordbot> *as a measurement of luck 20190228 17:41:18<+wesdiscordbot> yes, in general with enough repeated trials 20190228 17:41:24<+wesdiscordbot> the damage numbers will converge to 0% as well 20190228 17:41:47<+wesdiscordbot> on average, you'd expect it to happen over a couple hundred hits 20190228 17:42:13<+wesdiscordbot> but of course getting outliers isn't that unexpected, to get to that 1-2% for sure 20190228 17:42:30<+wesdiscordbot> you'd only be guaranteed that with a few thousand trials probably 20190228 17:42:59<+wesdiscordbot> of course, if you're getting like -10% with a few thousand trials, then you're probably really unlucky, might as well play the lottery with those odds 20190228 17:43:46<+wesdiscordbot> I got +30% while playing DiDr. So maybe I really should be playing lottery. 20190228 17:44:37<+wesdiscordbot> remember that these coin simulators use coin flips, which are binary 0-1 20190228 17:44:56<+wesdiscordbot> wesnoth has different values for each hit and isn't only a 0.5 chance 20190228 17:45:01<+wesdiscordbot> so it'll be higher variance than these simulators 20190228 17:45:26< Soliton> depending on what you mean with luck an automatic measurement is not possible. for example some rolls are much more important than others. so the statistics can show you're unlucky but if you always get the critical hits which if gone wrong would perhaps stop your entire attack that turn i'd argue otherwise. 20190228 17:45:30<+wesdiscordbot> Still, -28% taken dmg over a whole campaign is a lot. ._. 20190228 17:45:48<+wesdiscordbot> no it's not 20190228 17:45:53<+wesdiscordbot> in this specific ase 20190228 17:46:00<+wesdiscordbot> can you guess why though? :p 20190228 17:46:42<+wesdiscordbot> Because you scaled down everything? 20190228 17:46:44<+wesdiscordbot> I"ll give you a hint 20190228 17:46:51<+wesdiscordbot> your damage dealt should be close to 0% 20190228 17:46:57<+wesdiscordbot> +2%. 😄 20190228 17:46:58<+wesdiscordbot> but your damage taken should be a lot lower 20190228 17:47:03<+wesdiscordbot> highly negative 20190228 17:47:16<+wesdiscordbot> You mean, like, -28%? xD 20190228 17:47:27<+wesdiscordbot> yup 20190228 17:47:29<+wesdiscordbot> I got like -40% 20190228 17:47:38<+wesdiscordbot> answer is the engine doesn't account for drain properly 20190228 17:47:42<+wesdiscordbot> Ohhhhh. 20190228 17:47:55<+wesdiscordbot> Yumi the Spectre player. 20190228 17:48:03<+wesdiscordbot> I don't remember exactly the condition it doesn't account for it right, it might be that it doesn't account for healing past current 100% hp or something 20190228 17:48:14<+wesdiscordbot> but yea, yumi the spectre spammer racks up like -60% in IftU 20190228 17:48:17<+wesdiscordbot> :p 20190228 17:48:19<+wesdiscordbot> 😂 20190228 17:48:37<+wesdiscordbot> Soliton: In this case it's about 'when can you say that a replay is legit'. 20190228 17:48:58<+wesdiscordbot> As in, not a result of cheating by reloading fights until they work out the way you want. 20190228 17:49:03<+wesdiscordbot> answer is if you're using drain 20190228 17:49:13<+wesdiscordbot> you really can't tell from damage taken 20190228 17:49:17<+wesdiscordbot> only from damage dealt 20190228 17:49:24< Soliton> right, so IMO not possible to determine by looking at the stats. 20190228 17:49:32<+wesdiscordbot> without drain or some special abilities 20190228 17:49:41<+wesdiscordbot> I'd like to see values within +-15% ish 20190228 17:49:45<+wesdiscordbot> for an average sized scenario 20190228 17:49:54<+wesdiscordbot> but it can be that it's outside of that 20190228 17:50:00<+wesdiscordbot> in which case you'd look at the overall campaign stats 20190228 17:50:07< Soliton> you can easily save-load to get good rolls in critical situations and just as well save-load to get bad rolls in other situations. 20190228 17:50:16<+wesdiscordbot> yea 20190228 17:50:25<+wesdiscordbot> Someone please explain that to beetlenaut. :C 20190228 17:50:28<+wesdiscordbot> you really have to watch the replay to point out turns which could be mistakes 20190228 17:50:33<+wesdiscordbot> And @josteph 20190228 17:50:44<+wesdiscordbot> which for example Inky did for my playthrough of UtBS 20190228 17:51:02< Soliton> of course i would not expect the average player to put that kind of effort into it. :-) 20190228 17:51:04<+wesdiscordbot> she pointed out some turns I played poorly (yes I know I did) but got relatively lucky (meaning I didn't hit a terrible roll, but could have) 20190228 17:51:29-!- joemaro [~joemaro@173.red-37-158-130.dynamicip.rima-tde.net] has joined #wesnoth 20190228 17:51:38<+wesdiscordbot> otoh I can understand the raging of rng because it's not what humans expect 20190228 17:51:43<+wesdiscordbot> In case you'd probably have reset the turn. 20190228 17:51:50<+wesdiscordbot> no I play from scenario start 20190228 17:51:54<+wesdiscordbot> if I screw up 20190228 17:51:54<+wesdiscordbot> What does 'otoh' mean? 20190228 17:51:56<+wesdiscordbot> Welp. 20190228 17:51:58<+wesdiscordbot> on the other hand 20190228 17:52:04<+wesdiscordbot> Sounds like the forgiving hardcore mod. 20190228 17:52:23<+wesdiscordbot> I mean usually I don't care to do a no losses playthrough, but in the case I wanted to, it would be too hard to start from campaign start 20190228 17:52:44<+wesdiscordbot> You mean scenario? 20190228 17:52:52<+wesdiscordbot> no, I meant campaign 20190228 17:53:05<+wesdiscordbot> That's the unforgiving hardcore mod. 😮 20190228 17:53:25<+wesdiscordbot> but anyway I personally think raging over RNG is reasonable because it really isn't what humans expect (unless you've learned stats) 20190228 17:53:41<+wesdiscordbot> and it doesn't necessarily feel good, even if it has some implications for gameplay 20190228 17:54:03< Soliton> (if you want really full control you could also write the replay yourself and decide each attacks outcome...) 20190228 17:54:07<+wesdiscordbot> i.e. for SP especially, I don't see a low variance pRNG as a bad thing, but anyway 20190228 17:54:48<+wesdiscordbot> if you as a player can overcome the intrinsic bias to rage about the rng, it's definitely not that hard to learn how to deal with it 20190228 17:54:52<+wesdiscordbot> you being the general you 20190228 17:55:08<+wesdiscordbot> But also me being the specific me. 😄 20190228 17:55:12<+wesdiscordbot> sure 20190228 17:55:14<+wesdiscordbot> As I can only agree. 20190228 17:55:23<+wesdiscordbot> but I do see the value in having a game "feel good" to play 20190228 17:55:28<+wesdiscordbot> and this includes rng 20190228 17:55:39< Soliton> well, we do have a more detemerinistic prng as an advanced option since a while. 20190228 17:55:46<+wesdiscordbot> yeah I suspect that's why dave made it 20190228 17:55:52< Soliton> not sure i heard any feedback from it so far though. 20190228 17:56:14<+wesdiscordbot> it's SP only 20190228 17:56:36< Soliton> surely we're talking about sp? 20190228 17:56:50< Soliton> kinda difficult to save-load in mp. 20190228 17:56:56<+wesdiscordbot> well I don't want to talk about MP too much personally, but 20190228 17:57:10<+wesdiscordbot> it's not unheard of to have a 1v1 match and one person gets +-10% over the other 20190228 17:57:20<+wesdiscordbot> and the person on the receiving end says "well, you just got lucky" 20190228 17:57:31<+wesdiscordbot> you might think of that situation, and it would be partially true 20190228 17:57:32< Soliton> sure, they might even be right. 20190228 17:57:35<+wesdiscordbot> yup 20190228 17:58:03< Soliton> but it might as well be the opposite. you need to judge the replay not just the stats. 20190228 17:58:36<+wesdiscordbot> yeah, and again 20190228 17:58:41<+wesdiscordbot> supposing you made a more deterministic rng 20190228 17:58:56<+wesdiscordbot> someone could actually count numbers and predict exactly when they would hit or dodge and use that to their advantage 20190228 17:59:04<+wesdiscordbot> which is another type of gameplay 20190228 17:59:35<+wesdiscordbot> not exactly the same as managing the current level of randomness in wesnoth 20190228 17:59:38< Soliton> they couldn't predict exactly but you can predict likelihoods, sure. 20190228 17:59:52< Soliton> in high level of play it'd just make everything more complicated. 20190228 17:59:57<+wesdiscordbot> take the extreme case where 60% CTH means you hit exactly 6/10 hits 20190228 18:00:11<+wesdiscordbot> so if you missed 3 in a row at the very start of a group of 10 20190228 18:00:27<+wesdiscordbot> then you know 6 of the 7 remainng ones will definitely hit, and you can use that information to your advantage 20190228 18:01:49< Soliton> technically right, the best kind of right. 20190228 18:02:25<+wesdiscordbot> xD 20190228 18:02:51<+wesdiscordbot> rng is a sticky issue to say the least 20190228 18:06:59<+wesdiscordbot> @Konrad2 what have I done? 20190228 18:09:40<+wesdiscordbot> You brought up the idea of a wiki page for replays if UMC scenarios. :) 20190228 18:10:15<+wesdiscordbot> With a spin off debate about how much luck is too much luck as criteria for allowing a replay. ^^ 20190228 18:20:45<+wesdiscordbot> I think luck shouldn't be a criterion 20190228 18:21:35<+wesdiscordbot> part of the point of that repository of replays is to show people that extreme luck results happen about as frequently as mathematics predicts 20190228 18:23:03<+wesdiscordbot> it would be an asset to have some replays with received-dealt=40% and the player still winning 20190228 18:24:03<+wesdiscordbot> my first attempt at @Yumi 's DiD S11 went about like that - I had -150GP damage, I think, and didn't use a bonus the level design assumed I would use 20190228 18:24:45<+wesdiscordbot> but such replays could have educational value. even if they end up in a loss (as mine did) 20190228 18:30:49<+wesdiscordbot> what Konrad2 was saying is that it's not necessarily easy to judge the legitimacy of a replay 20190228 18:30:57<+wesdiscordbot> since it could have involved save-loading 20190228 18:31:46<+wesdiscordbot> It's not possible to prevent people from save-loading. 20190228 18:31:54<+wesdiscordbot> You could do it on a good faith basis. Because really, what's there to gain by uploading a replay that's based on save loading. 20190228 18:31:57<+wesdiscordbot> They could always do a mid-scenario save, copy the save to another computer, etc 20190228 18:32:18<+wesdiscordbot> Yes, it'll have to be good faith. And that will probably work well enough. 20190228 18:32:59<+wesdiscordbot> If you ever create such a page/thread/something, tell us. I'm sure you'll be flooded by replays. xD 20190228 18:39:28<+wesdiscordbot> I will be if you'll contribute. 😃 20190228 18:40:22<+wesdiscordbot> :thonk: 20190228 18:40:30<+wesdiscordbot> Konrad2 probably has acollection of thousands of replays by now... 20190228 18:47:32-!- Tobbi [~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 20190228 18:48:40<+wesdiscordbot> That's not true. I deleted all from before 1.14. (Which is kinda a real shame.) So only 500 for now. :C 20190228 18:49:40<+wesdiscordbot> @Konrad2 I will. And I'm sure others will as well. 20190228 18:49:53<+wesdiscordbot> you pinged yourself 20190228 18:49:59<+wesdiscordbot> nvm you fixed XD 20190228 18:50:00<+wesdiscordbot> You didn't see that. 20190228 18:50:05<+wesdiscordbot> 😄 20190228 18:50:05<+wesdiscordbot> I didn't see that 20190228 18:50:08<+wesdiscordbot> :p 20190228 18:58:46-!- Haudegen [~quassel@212-186-77-29.static.upcbusiness.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20190228 19:10:10-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20190228 19:11:52<+wesdiscordbot> Is it just me, or is https://addons.wesnoth.org/1.14/ broken? 20190228 19:12:16<+wesdiscordbot> *https://addons.wesnoth.org/ 20190228 19:12:48<+wesdiscordbot> Okaaay, the development server ones still work. 20190228 19:13:40<+wesdiscordbot> groan 20190228 19:13:44<+wesdiscordbot> Or not. I don't get the pattern. 20190228 19:14:29<+wesdiscordbot> Current instances: Broken 20190228 19:14:32<+wesdiscordbot> yeah 20190228 19:14:35<+wesdiscordbot> Retired Instances: work 20190228 19:14:41<+wesdiscordbot> Soliton, elias: would either of you know what's going on here? https://gist.github.com/shikadiqueen/012843177ab6d045c893d63004c13f59 20190228 19:15:16<+wesdiscordbot> I doubt we have an add-on named '?' so I'm really concerned about WAM's robustness in the event of parse errors 20190228 19:15:24<+wesdiscordbot> (The good news, the add-on server itself seems to be fine.) 20190228 19:15:27<+wesdiscordbot> I'm assuming a parse error is involved somehow since people have been messing with that as of late 20190228 19:16:05-!- joemaro [~joemaro@173.red-37-158-130.dynamicip.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20190228 19:16:51< Soliton> what command ran there? how to reproduce? 20190228 19:17:33<+wesdiscordbot> (While I'm at it, I'd like to point out that https://addons.wesnoth.org/1.7/ is empty and I'm really wondering why you provide a link for it.) 20190228 19:17:52<+wesdiscordbot> /home/wesnoth/bin/update_addons 1.14, not sure about the exact command line that's going crazy there 20190228 19:18:39<+wesdiscordbot> @Konrad2 https://wiki.wesnoth.org/Player_UMC_Replays 20190228 19:19:23<+wesdiscordbot> $HOME/source/master/data/tools/wesnoth_addon_manager -a $CAMPAIGND_HOST --port 1.14.x --verbose --datadir "$HOME/source/1.14" --download='.*' -c "$HOME/addons-unpacked/1.14" --html="$HOME/WWW/html/addons/1.14" --url="http://files.wesnoth.org/addons/1.14/" --tar="$HOME/WWW/html/files/addons/1.14" 20190228 19:19:33<+wesdiscordbot> I believe that should be it 20190228 19:20:01<+wesdiscordbot> note to self replace http with https 20190228 19:20:04<+wesdiscordbot> @josteph Tell me again when you know if attachments are allowed in the wiki. xD 20190228 19:20:23<+wesdiscordbot> @Konrad2 Currently they aren't. 20190228 19:20:24<+wesdiscordbot> Attachments are allowed if you belong to the uploaders user group 20190228 19:20:40<+wesdiscordbot> There's a funny story behind wiki attachments 20190228 19:21:04-!- smiley- is now known as smiley` 20190228 19:21:37<+wesdiscordbot> We have such a user group? 20190228 19:21:51<+wesdiscordbot> I tried to upload a small image and got Unknown error: "{"xhr":{"readyState":4,"responseText":"MediaWiki API is not enabled for this site. Add the following line to your LocalSettings.php
$wgEnableAPI=true;
","status":500,"statusText":"MediaWiki configuration Error"},"textStatus":"error","exception":"MediaWiki configuration Error"}". 20190228 19:22:18<+wesdiscordbot> We have such a user group indeed because I created it 20190228 19:22:45<+wesdiscordbot> @josteph What did you use to try to upload it? 20190228 19:23:37<+wesdiscordbot> @Iris The 20190228 19:23:37<+wesdiscordbot> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/231976805987385345/550759995948662834/Screenshot_2019-02-28_19-08-09.png 20190228 19:23:41<+wesdiscordbot> button 20190228 19:24:00<+wesdiscordbot> The what now? 20190228 19:24:21<+wesdiscordbot> Let me rephrase the question: did you actually use the website and not an external tool? 20190228 19:25:26<+wesdiscordbot> Okay I see an error and it's nothing like that 20190228 19:25:37<+wesdiscordbot> Exception encountered, of type "LocalFileLockError" 20190228 19:26:30<+wesdiscordbot> Okay so the funny story is I keep breaking wiki uploads because nobody's ever used them 20190228 19:26:46<+wesdiscordbot> Every other time I upgrade the wiki the uploads directory either disappears or becomes read-only 20190228 19:27:00<+wesdiscordbot> So as long as nobody uses them this will keep happening 20190228 19:27:29-!- Tobbi [~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi] has joined #wesnoth 20190228 19:28:08<+wesdiscordbot> xD @josteph might be the one to make some uploading happen. 20190228 19:30:40<+wesdiscordbot> There we go, fixed it 20190228 19:30:48<+wesdiscordbot> Had to grab a backup from 2016 20190228 19:31:28<+wesdiscordbot> It's not a problem because ther was only one preexisting upload: https://wiki.wesnoth.org/Special:ListFiles 20190228 19:32:10<+wesdiscordbot> Also since nobody has used uploads before and I think I forgot to test them, there's a 90% chance they will be rendered weird with the default stylesheet 20190228 19:32:32<+wesdiscordbot> If you want to try using uploads you need to ask me to add you to the uploaders group 20190228 19:32:36<+wesdiscordbot> And report any bugs you find 20190228 19:33:05<+wesdiscordbot> @Iris Yes, I used firefox. Thanks for fixing 20190228 19:33:15<+wesdiscordbot> Firefox is a web browser 20190228 19:33:40<+wesdiscordbot> I use Firefox too. That error you get is something you shouldn't be seeing unless you're trying to use a tool that uses the MW API, which is not enabled 20190228 19:34:07<+wesdiscordbot> well, I did see it 20190228 19:37:26<+wesdiscordbot> @Iris So, I'm still seeing the error. Do I need to force refresh or something? Or is it me not being in the uploaders group? 20190228 19:37:47<+wesdiscordbot> OK first of all, no, you are not in the uploaders group because you haven't asked me to add you to the uploaders group 20190228 19:38:01<+wesdiscordbot> Second of all, are you sure you're using https://wiki.wesnoth.org/Special:Upload ? 20190228 19:38:05<+wesdiscordbot> please don't add me just yet 20190228 19:38:25<+wesdiscordbot> I've never heard of this page and I get a "Permission error" when I go to it 20190228 19:38:31<+wesdiscordbot> The action you have requested is limited to users in one of the groups: Administrators, Uploaders. 20190228 19:38:39<+wesdiscordbot> What are you trying to upload with then? 20190228 19:38:53<+wesdiscordbot> The image I uploaded here to this channel a few minutes ago 20190228 19:38:59<+wesdiscordbot> No 20190228 19:39:04<+wesdiscordbot> Where? 20190228 19:39:21<+wesdiscordbot> sorry, what? 20190228 19:39:33<+wesdiscordbot> What are you trying to use to upload files? 20190228 19:39:37<+wesdiscordbot> I'm trying to upload the image I uploaded to this chat 16 minutes ago, to https://wiki.wesnoth.org/index.php?title=Player_UMC_Replays&action=edit§ion=1 20190228 19:39:39<+wesdiscordbot> firefox 20190228 19:39:47<+wesdiscordbot> I'm in edit mode 20190228 19:39:57<+wesdiscordbot> I click that toolbar button, the one that looks like a sunset 20190228 19:40:18<+wesdiscordbot> then I press "Upload" and so on 20190228 19:40:20<+wesdiscordbot> I wasn't aware such a thing existed or that it used the API 20190228 19:40:28<+wesdiscordbot> Maybe it's because I didn't enter a filename first ... 20190228 19:40:30<+wesdiscordbot> How does it even work? 20190228 19:40:45<+wesdiscordbot> does it work for you? 20190228 19:41:34<+wesdiscordbot> @Iris For context, we're trying to set up a page where players can upload their UMC SP replays 20190228 19:41:58<+wesdiscordbot> Okay I know you're a developer and I know you can put one and one together. If I say the API is disabled and you're seeing an API-related error then that means it's not because of anything you did, it's because the API is disabled 20190228 19:42:01<+wesdiscordbot> We could just instruct to upload to the forums... 20190228 19:42:16<+wesdiscordbot> I only just found that there's such a thing as an upload button in the edit form and that it uses the API for some reason 20190228 19:42:23<+wesdiscordbot> I thought maybe the API would work for people in the Uploaders group 20190228 19:42:38<+wesdiscordbot> No, the API is disabled, there's no access control going on for that 20190228 19:42:49<+wesdiscordbot> (Although if it were enabled you'd be rejected anyway because you are not in the right groups) 20190228 19:43:02<+wesdiscordbot> Ah, now I understand. 20190228 19:43:16<+wesdiscordbot> I'm a bit upset that I need to enable the API for this 20190228 19:43:36<+wesdiscordbot> I think it's logical for MediaWiki to use the API internally. "Eating your own dogfood" and all that. 20190228 19:43:56<+wesdiscordbot> I think it would be nice if the replays could be uploaded to the wiki directly. 20190228 19:44:00<+wesdiscordbot> The API is supposed to be there for external tools 20190228 19:44:24<+wesdiscordbot> MW really shouldn't use the API but this is far from the most braindead thing I've seen coming from them 20190228 19:44:30<+wesdiscordbot> We could tell people to upload attachments to the forum, but that would add three or four steps to the instructions. 20190228 19:45:05<+wesdiscordbot> Why you'd want to do that instead of having people upload directly to the wiki and what is this for anyway? 20190228 19:46:27<+wesdiscordbot> Also, to clarify, every time I've said API I mean this API, not the internal API: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/API:Main_page#Introduction 20190228 19:46:39<+wesdiscordbot> It's for a page collecting UMC SP replays. 20190228 19:47:03<+wesdiscordbot> And I thought of the forums as a solution to "Where can I tell players to upload replays to, given that they're disabled on the wiki" 20190228 19:47:10<+wesdiscordbot> If they want it to be enabled for file uploads on the simple editing UI to work then whatever, they really need a lesson or two on software development either way 20190228 19:47:26<+wesdiscordbot> At the time I didn't know if the administration would be open to allowing uploads to the wiki. 20190228 19:47:29<+wesdiscordbot> I guess we don't need to worry about abuse since accounts have to be created by admins these days 20190228 19:47:35<+wesdiscordbot> agreed. 20190228 19:47:43<+wesdiscordbot> And yeah, it's a bug that the toolbar button is there but not usable 20190228 19:47:53<+wesdiscordbot> I'll fix it in a bit while I upgrade the wiki 20190228 19:48:03<+wesdiscordbot> thank you very much 😄 20190228 20:17:37<+wesdiscordbot> Upgraded the wiki 20190228 20:17:38<+wesdiscordbot> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/231976805987385345/550773587129139202/unknown.png 20190228 20:18:36<+wesdiscordbot> @josteph What's your account name? 20190228 20:20:22-!- Narrat [~Narrat@p5DCC615A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20190228 20:34:22-!- mthe878 [~mthe@unaffiliated/mthe] has joined #wesnoth 20190228 20:52:17< Soliton> https://addons.wesnoth.org/1.14/ is back to normal 20190228 21:00:03<+wesdiscordbot> Thanks 20190228 21:01:24<+wesdiscordbot> @Iris "Josteph" 20190228 21:02:00<+wesdiscordbot> You're an uploader now 20190228 21:02:38<+wesdiscordbot> I enabled the wiki API so the simple edit UI's upload functionality should work normally now if you have the necessary rights 20190228 21:03:42<+wesdiscordbot> Thanks What do you think about giving upload permissions to new accounts ? 20190228 21:03:50<+wesdiscordbot> As you said signup is manual anyway 20190228 21:04:03<+wesdiscordbot> Undecided, I don't want people using the wiki as a dumping ground for their own crap 20190228 21:04:08<+wesdiscordbot> Uploads should be useful to the community 20190228 21:04:23<+wesdiscordbot> how do we prevent people from using the forums this way? 20190228 21:04:29<+wesdiscordbot> The moderators do 20190228 21:04:38<+wesdiscordbot> It's literally in the forum rules 20190228 21:04:52<+wesdiscordbot> (And also Off-Topic has attachments disabled entirely) 20190228 21:05:02<+wesdiscordbot> Sure, there's moderators. 20190228 21:05:15<+wesdiscordbot> But there's nothing preventing anyone from signing up and uploading an attachment 20190228 21:05:23<+wesdiscordbot> We ban after the fact, sure 20190228 21:05:28<+wesdiscordbot> Exactly 20190228 21:06:05<+wesdiscordbot> In the end it's your call. Personally I don't think the risk of spammers going through a manual signup process is high. 20190228 21:06:22<+wesdiscordbot> I never said my concern was spammers, that'd be silly 20190228 21:06:35<+wesdiscordbot> "people using the wiki as a dumping ground for their own crap" 20190228 21:06:43<+wesdiscordbot> For example their own UMC 20190228 21:07:20<+wesdiscordbot> If they decide to create image-heavy pages they had better have a good reason for it and not be able to do it on a whim 20190228 21:07:51<+wesdiscordbot> Also by its very nature on the wiki you get unlimited attachments. On the forums you have a limit of attachments per post 20190228 21:08:41<+wesdiscordbot> Yeah, I see what you're saying 20190228 21:08:51<+wesdiscordbot> If you give N users a permission, at least one of them will abuse it 20190228 21:09:11<+wesdiscordbot> and I can imagine you don't want to police wiki attachments in addition to everything else ... 20190228 21:55:03<+wesdiscordbot> Well instead of uploading replays to the wiki the umc replays page could just be links to the forum, most umc forum threads have replays in them 20190228 21:56:01-!- mthe878 [~mthe@unaffiliated/mthe] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20190228 21:57:29-!- mthe878 [~mthe@unaffiliated/mthe] has joined #wesnoth 20190228 22:06:27-!- mthe878 [~mthe@unaffiliated/mthe] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20190228 22:09:04-!- madmax28_ [~madmax28@2001-4dd6-e1e8-0-ba27-ebff-febc-e0cb.ipv6dyn.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20190228 22:09:58-!- madmax28 [~madmax28@xdsl-84-44-157-8.nc.de] has joined #wesnoth 20190228 22:16:20<+wesdiscordbot> yeah, could be, if that doesn't scare people off 20190228 22:16:48<+wesdiscordbot> having to sign up to two accounts, having to "post a replay to the forum", and so on 20190228 22:23:14<+wesdiscordbot> How about making the wiki page a collection of links while creating threads for each UMC campaign where you upload the replays? (Tbh that's basically a simulation of creating another layer for the forum.) 20190228 22:24:36<+wesdiscordbot> You wouldn't even need to have a wiki page for this. Just make a topic with one post, which is listing all those links to other topics. xD 20190228 22:24:55<+wesdiscordbot> the reason for having a wiki page is because it's easier to search and so on 20190228 22:25:04<+wesdiscordbot> and to edit, everyone can edit, not just moderators 20190228 22:25:08<+wesdiscordbot> Btw, what's the difference between a thread and a topic? 20190228 22:25:21<+wesdiscordbot> American v. British english, probably 20190228 22:25:32<+wesdiscordbot> That sounds reasonable. 20190228 22:26:29<+wesdiscordbot> If we make that wiki page contain only links, nobody would need the right to upload. 20190228 22:27:13<+wesdiscordbot> But wouldn't it be more feasonable(?) to create a dedicated layer in the forum for this? 20190228 22:27:37<+wesdiscordbot> I have no clue how set in stone the forum structure is right now. 20190228 22:29:43<+wesdiscordbot> *feasible 20190228 22:29:44<+wesdiscordbot> you mean, like the mainline campaign feedback forum ? 20190228 22:30:02<+wesdiscordbot> which is group by scenario, not just by campaign 20190228 22:32:49<+wesdiscordbot> Yes. But its grouped by campaign and then by scenario. The scenario layer is nice, but not strictly necessary and I'd certainly forgo is if we do the simulation. (It would already take up a lot of space. No need to make it take up more space.) 20190228 22:33:28<+wesdiscordbot> I kinda like the scenario layer. Helps not to get spoilered 20190228 22:33:47<+wesdiscordbot> by the way, I'm not sure if "taking up space" is a problem 20190228 22:33:53<+wesdiscordbot> thread ids are cheap, aren't they? 20190228 22:34:10<+wesdiscordbot> Spoilered by the scenario name? 20190228 22:35:56<+wesdiscordbot> that could happen... or by people then discussing the scenario 20190228 22:36:18<+wesdiscordbot> another consideration, signal to noise ratio 20190228 22:36:35<+wesdiscordbot> even in say THoT it's going to be hard to find the links you want, if all 12 scenarios are mixed in one thread 20190228 22:37:29<+wesdiscordbot> let's continue the discussion on the forum maybe? 20190228 22:43:36-!- Tobbi [~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20190228 23:10:48-!- Tobbi [~Tobbi@supertux/tobbi] has joined #wesnoth 20190228 23:13:15<+wesdiscordbot> @Iris How do I get a 'contents' table in the wiki like in https://wiki.wesnoth.org/index.php?title=Races ? 20190228 23:18:37<+wesdiscordbot> Just add a great number of subheadings? 20190228 23:19:43<+wesdiscordbot> Either that or explicitly use __TOC__ to add the toc in a particular line 20190228 23:19:51<+wesdiscordbot> Hello. 20190228 23:29:59<+wesdiscordbot> Thanks. 20190228 23:44:36<+wesdiscordbot> @Iris Apparently embolding text in the wiki makes it ignore it if you enter a new line afterwards. 20190228 23:45:11<+wesdiscordbot> Try using to enclose a multiline sequence 20190228 23:45:44<+wesdiscordbot> It's a single line. 20190228 23:46:29<+wesdiscordbot> (And it doesn't work doing it that way either. :/ 20190228 23:46:31<+wesdiscordbot> *) 20190228 23:46:52<+wesdiscordbot> Example this Is displayed like Examplethis 20190228 23:47:13<+wesdiscordbot> Just embolded instead. I forgot how to do it in discord. ._. 20190228 23:47:46<+wesdiscordbot> https://wiki.wesnoth.org/Player_UMC_Replays 20190228 23:48:16<+wesdiscordbot> Wait, what's the problematic line here? 20190228 23:48:41<+wesdiscordbot> Also on Discord you use *italics*, **bold** and `bold italics~ 20190228 23:49:35<+wesdiscordbot> https://wiki.wesnoth.org/Player_UMC_Replays#Bad_Moon_Rising 20190228 23:49:45<+wesdiscordbot> The sequel and that dialog scenario bit. 20190228 23:50:10<+wesdiscordbot> It looks bold to me 20190228 23:50:41<+wesdiscordbot> Yeah, but it ignores that afterwards/before is a new line 20190228 23:50:42<+wesdiscordbot> Ohhhh you mean the line break gets ignored 20190228 23:50:47<+wesdiscordbot> Use
20190228 23:50:50<+wesdiscordbot> Yeah, that's the word. xD 20190228 23:50:53<+wesdiscordbot> That forces a line brewka 20190228 23:51:55<+wesdiscordbot> But is it a bug? (It ignores only one line break, so I can avoid it by doing two line breaks, it's just unexpected behavior.) 20190228 23:52:08<+wesdiscordbot> I don't know, what happens if you try it on Wikipedia? 😛 20190228 23:52:54<+wesdiscordbot> (The point here is that MediaWiki was written for Wikipedia/other Wikimedia projects and therefore its behaviour there is the reference as to whether something should be considered a bug or not) 20190228 23:53:30<+wesdiscordbot> I'll try it. xD 20190228 23:53:55<+wesdiscordbot> Anyway, do you think the Player UMC Replays page looks nice now? ^^ 20190228 23:55:04<+wesdiscordbot> Apparently not a bug. :thonk: 20190228 23:55:18<+wesdiscordbot> MediaWiki's parser is weird and awful 20190228 23:56:12<+wesdiscordbot> Also idk, I have no idea what it's supposed to look like etc. 20190228 23:57:18<+wesdiscordbot> We are still figuring that out, so... you can still easily sway it's look into one direction or another. 20190228 23:57:42<+wesdiscordbot> Especially since it's the wiki and you can edit it any way you want. xD 20190228 23:58:33<+wesdiscordbot> Is it possible to hide parts of the Contents instead of everything? 20190228 23:59:41<+wesdiscordbot> Not with our current configuration I don't think 20190228 23:59:59-!- Narrat [~Narrat@p5DCC615A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] --- Log closed Fri Mar 01 00:00:06 2019