--- Log opened Sat Mar 30 00:00:36 2019 20190330 01:01:50<+wesdiscordbot> you could try disabling map animations 20190330 01:13:02-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87.static.drei.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20190330 03:52:23-!- celticminstrel is now known as celmin|sleep 20190330 06:41:49-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth 20190330 09:32:00<+wesdiscordbot> can someone help me with downloading the game i cant seem to get it done (i am doing the download without steam) 20190330 09:33:17<+wesdiscordbot> What exactly happens when you try to download it? 20190330 09:37:13<+wesdiscordbot> i download it from the site and have this 32bit .exe 20190330 09:37:50<+wesdiscordbot> i install it and it says it is finished but i cant find the app or launch it 20190330 09:38:12<+wesdiscordbot> i am on 64bit dont know if it makes a difference 20190330 09:40:24<+wesdiscordbot> Did you choose "Install for anyone" or "Install just for me" in the installer? 20190330 09:42:14<+wesdiscordbot> just for me 20190330 09:43:59<+wesdiscordbot> You should have a "Battle for Wesnoth 1.14.6" folder in the Start Menu. 20190330 09:44:05<+wesdiscordbot> I take it you don't have it? 20190330 09:44:10<+wesdiscordbot> nn 20190330 09:45:05<+wesdiscordbot> In that case, open Windows Explorer, type %localappdata% to the address bar (including the percent signs) and press Enter. 20190330 09:45:25<+wesdiscordbot> You should see a "Battle for Wesnoth 1.14.6" directory there. 20190330 09:45:32<+wesdiscordbot> ok 20190330 09:46:05<+wesdiscordbot> oh thank you it is there nice 20190330 09:46:41<+wesdiscordbot> There is wesnoth.exe in the "Battle for Wesnoth 1.14.6" directory. You can then drag it to your desktop with the right mouse button and choose "create shortcut". 20190330 09:48:04<+wesdiscordbot> ok i got it now 20190330 09:48:18<+wesdiscordbot> Great. 😃 20190330 09:49:38<+wesdiscordbot> thank you again 😉 20190330 09:49:53<+wesdiscordbot> You're welcome. 😄 20190330 11:00:41-!- mthe878 [~mthe@unaffiliated/mthe] has joined #wesnoth 20190330 11:16:06-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87.static.drei.at] has joined #wesnoth 20190330 11:16:49-!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: oldlaptop, APic, Gambit 20190330 11:18:05-!- Netsplit over, joins: oldlaptop 20190330 11:19:17-!- Gambit [~derek@wesnoth/developer/grickit] has joined #wesnoth 20190330 11:22:16-!- APic [apic@apic.name] has joined #wesnoth 20190330 11:35:03-!- mthe878 [~mthe@unaffiliated/mthe] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20190330 14:22:39-!- celmin|sleep is now known as celticminstrel 20190330 17:43:53<+wesdiscordbot> Is there a way to download old versions of campaigns? 20190330 17:44:24<+wesdiscordbot> I was in the middle of playing a few UMC campaigns and now I upgraded them using the add-on manager. 20190330 17:44:34<+wesdiscordbot> I'm not sure if the new versions are savefile-compatible 20190330 17:47:00<+wesdiscordbot> No, there isn't, unless the author has published them somewhere 20190330 17:47:25<+wesdiscordbot> Thanks 20190330 17:50:28<+wesdiscordbot> So what is going on with Dunefolk? 20190330 17:52:58<+wesdiscordbot> some people are trying to rebalance them 20190330 17:54:58<+wesdiscordbot> Is it going at least well? 20190330 17:55:42<+wesdiscordbot> there's a Dunefolk Balanced mod for testing 20190330 17:56:00<+wesdiscordbot> https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=49630 20190330 17:56:45<+wesdiscordbot> not sure what other ppl think, but it looks pretty good for the most part to me 20190330 17:58:12<+wesdiscordbot> Looks.. Often downloaded. 20190330 17:59:38<+wesdiscordbot> so every bit of feedback helps 😃 20190330 18:00:52<+wesdiscordbot> I think that's a bit of a problem with the testing process, though 20190330 18:01:10<+wesdiscordbot> I'd wager that most of the people reviewing it haven't actually tried out the faction playing it 20190330 18:01:42<+wesdiscordbot> or maybe I'm wrong, idk, but ideally the rebalanced faction goes under more playtesting to get the values more or less right 20190330 18:03:04<+wesdiscordbot> I wonder how much it was tested by actual creators. 20190330 18:03:38<+wesdiscordbot> Contrary to what people believe it was tested a lot by its original creators 20190330 18:04:01<+wesdiscordbot> yeah, Krogen is a high level wesnoth player and he was working on it with them 20190330 18:04:25<+wesdiscordbot> so as far as balance/strategy go, I think it should be more or less trustworthy with maybe only minor tweaks 20190330 18:06:23<+wesdiscordbot> there's like a couple places where I think the units could use some small modifications (+- 1dmg or +- a bit of hp), but they're really minor 20190330 18:06:54<+wesdiscordbot> maybe we should advertise it in topic ? 20190330 18:07:15<+wesdiscordbot> better ask the authors first 20190330 18:07:26<+wesdiscordbot> I can only hope that this is true. Only one high level player was working on that? If only single person is responsible for that it can be a bit biased. 20190330 18:07:27<+wesdiscordbot> advertise what? 20190330 18:07:38<+wesdiscordbot> yeah I'm not saying it's infallible 20190330 18:08:08<+wesdiscordbot> but again that's why I'd hope that people reviewing the faction are actually trying it out in games 20190330 18:08:12<+wesdiscordbot> not just looking at numbers 20190330 18:09:46<+wesdiscordbot> @Rory It was worked on by multiple people. 20190330 18:10:12<+wesdiscordbot> advertise the existing of the mod and the fact they want feedback. 20190330 18:10:31<+wesdiscordbot> but as I said, better ask the team when they're ready to announce it to a wider audience than just the forums 20190330 18:10:34<+wesdiscordbot> err what do you mean advertise in topic 20190330 18:11:21<+wesdiscordbot> write in topic that there's a dunefolk revision on the addon server and that players are invited to download and playtest 20190330 18:11:22<+wesdiscordbot> I think just numbers can be highly unaccurate. And what do you think should be changed in thier version? I'm in middle of checking this out. 20190330 18:11:26<+wesdiscordbot> you mean here? 20190330 18:11:37<+wesdiscordbot> yes 20190330 18:11:40<+wesdiscordbot> nah 20190330 18:11:48< celticminstrel> I'm not trying it out in games. 20190330 18:12:01<+wesdiscordbot> we haven't given any other addons special treatment, I don't see why we would for the dunefolk revision 20190330 18:12:10-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87.static.drei.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20190330 18:12:20<+wesdiscordbot> nor have we advertised any potential mainline revision stuff either, besides the new engine 20190330 18:12:22< celticminstrel> But if you're making balance arguments, you definitely need to try it in games. 20190330 18:12:25<+wesdiscordbot> We haven't given this treatment to TSG or DiD or WoV 20190330 18:12:33<+wesdiscordbot> but maybe we should have 😃 20190330 18:12:41<+wesdiscordbot> for sure lore problems you don't need to try them out 20190330 18:12:59<+wesdiscordbot> or like if you disagree with the faction having nagas, no need to try it 20190330 18:13:49< celticminstrel> Maybe I missed something but I'm not sure what treatment Josteph is referring to. 20190330 18:14:17<+wesdiscordbot> Advertising ongoing work to address issues with game content 20190330 18:14:29< celticminstrel> Ah okay. 20190330 18:14:51<+wesdiscordbot> @Rory one example is the soldier, I think it's not worth 18g 20190330 18:14:54<+wesdiscordbot> probably 16-17g 20190330 18:14:55<+wesdiscordbot> WoV is a bad idea until it gets out of the problematic content hole it's currently stuck in though 20190330 18:15:02< celticminstrel> Indeed. 20190330 18:15:22<+wesdiscordbot> Because right nwow it only sounds like not even the devs understand how to make drakes work in a story-based campaign 20190330 18:15:44<+wesdiscordbot> another is the levelup into swordsman, I think the attack with special shock should be 9-2, not 10-2 dmg 20190330 18:16:10<+wesdiscordbot> that one is much more of a "maybe" 20190330 18:16:59<+wesdiscordbot> skirmisher and harrier need new names since they have leadership now 20190330 18:17:08<+wesdiscordbot> to be honest, I don't understand why it's weird to say that drakes eat their fallen enemies 20190330 18:17:31< celticminstrel> It's a combination of multiple factors, that's just one of them. 20190330 18:17:51<+wesdiscordbot> and I think the rider line has a couple problems, mostly that the chaotic one (raider I think) doesn't feel too interesting 20190330 18:17:55<+wesdiscordbot> but anyway these are all small things 20190330 18:20:15<+wesdiscordbot> celmin, what else? You know what I think of the "hunting slaves" interpretation 20190330 18:20:46< celticminstrel> The slaves thing is part of it, yes. 20190330 18:20:49<+wesdiscordbot> WoV has issues, but anyway it doesn't seem like anyone is going to do anything about it 20190330 18:21:05< celticminstrel> And it's not just that they're eating humans, it's also how they're eating humans, I guess? 20190330 18:21:46<+wesdiscordbot> the slaves thing is one line that can be changed 20190330 18:22:56< celticminstrel> Pretty sure it's the entire premise of humans even being present in that scenario. 20190330 18:23:12< celticminstrel> More than just one line, definitely. 20190330 18:24:01< celticminstrel> The humans are characterized as escaped slaves from the very beginning. 20190330 18:24:59<+wesdiscordbot> message= _ "Galun, I think I spy runners. Away north, past the slave farms." 20190330 18:25:07<+wesdiscordbot> it doesn't say the runners fled the farms 20190330 18:25:14< celticminstrel> ... 20190330 18:25:16<+wesdiscordbot> Yeah. 20190330 18:25:18<+wesdiscordbot> Hmm, I see that there are some mistakes and some level ups still have old ilminal alignment. Soldier level ups certainly look strong. Rider level ups look a bit repeatable. I think Shieldbreaker is the weakest unit of them all. Soldier might be good if enemy dont know with what he is dealing. 20190330 18:25:19<+wesdiscordbot> and in any case, if you think my interpretation is reasonable, we can and should clarify the text 20190330 18:25:22<+wesdiscordbot> They were released for hunting purposes. 20190330 18:25:28<+wesdiscordbot> That's so much better. xD 20190330 18:25:46<+wesdiscordbot> @Rory it'd be helpful if you put your thoughts in the thread, but I'd def. suggest trying them out first 20190330 18:25:49<+wesdiscordbot> @Konrad2 have you seen my interpretation? https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/pull/3977#issuecomment-475985640 20190330 18:25:55< celticminstrel> Sure, it doesn't explicitly say it, but the implication is clear, and the term "runner" is explicitly described as referring to an escaped slave. 20190330 18:26:25<+wesdiscordbot> @Rory There are a few changes planned for the next revision of the addon. There's no list of them that I know of though, it's in the threads... 20190330 18:27:07< celticminstrel> I think there might be a way in which the problematic content is fixed up while still having the drakes eat humans, but as it currently stands, it's not good. 20190330 18:27:07<+wesdiscordbot> I assumed "runners" meant "bipedals" 20190330 18:27:15< celticminstrel> You didn't read the po notes, did you. 20190330 18:27:19<+wesdiscordbot> I didn't until now, but personally I don't think it holds up. 20190330 18:27:34<+wesdiscordbot> I did, a few months ago 20190330 18:27:46<+wesdiscordbot> #po: "Runners" is a Drake term for escaped slaves hunted as game. 20190330 18:28:02<+wesdiscordbot> well, yeah 20190330 18:28:12<+wesdiscordbot> I can see them punishing escape attempts by capital punishment 20190330 18:28:17<+wesdiscordbot> To me it sounds like they sometimes let slaves escape to stock up the amount of people they can hunt. 20190330 18:28:25<+wesdiscordbot> and at that point, eating the corpse is kinda sensible, if you think of it from a predator point of view 20190330 18:28:29< celticminstrel> And the comment towards the end backs that up, Konrad. 20190330 18:28:39<+wesdiscordbot> so here's the thing 20190330 18:28:41<+wesdiscordbot> but it does make the "release prisoners for sport" interpretation more likely 20190330 18:28:44<+wesdiscordbot> Basically adding in hunting for sentients for sport (although there is also the need for food). 20190330 18:28:57<+wesdiscordbot> as a concept, drakes originally farming humans for food can work 20190330 18:29:05<+wesdiscordbot> and then shifting away from it, that idea in itself doesn't have any fault 20190330 18:29:30<+wesdiscordbot> however, executing on that idea in writing/gameplay is a bit tricky, and WoV doesn't do it well enough for me (personally) to buy it 20190330 18:29:58<+wesdiscordbot> the simpler solution to me would be to remove that reference, but the other angle one could take is to run with that idea, but write it better 20190330 18:30:18< celticminstrel> For the scenario, I'm thinking it might be better to depict drakes coming into conflict with free humans over the limited game in the forest. So, both the drakes and humans are going after the tuskers and such, and come into conflict. 20190330 18:31:02<+wesdiscordbot> if we do this, celmin, you get to answer the forum posts asking why drakes are predators that have human-like morals 😃 20190330 18:31:10< celticminstrel> As for eating humans, it seems like it could be fine for them to eat their fallen enemies, whatever the species. In particular, if they see it as some sort of way of honouring them, that could work. 20190330 18:31:55<+wesdiscordbot> this gets a bit into philsophy, but I feel like it's hard for people to write about societies/cultures that are extremely different than our own 20190330 18:32:10<+wesdiscordbot> because we are humans and our best understanding is of ourselves 20190330 18:32:15<+wesdiscordbot> and our society 20190330 18:32:31<+wesdiscordbot> I don't know if it's because they honour them or because they're predators and their instinct is to eat dead meat if they run across it in the wild unguarded 20190330 18:32:33< celticminstrel> Even if it's explicitly just about not wanting to waste meat, which I suspect is the intent in the current scenario, that doesn't come across well at all, and implication of hunting for sport just makes everything worse. 20190330 18:33:01<+wesdiscordbot> people make the argument that there are animals who eat things that might even be more intelligent than themselves, or cannibalize their own kind 20190330 18:33:05< celticminstrel> Well, running across a dead body in the wild is quite different from intentionally killing humans for food. 20190330 18:33:09<+wesdiscordbot> and then make the argument that drakes might be that kind of society 20190330 18:33:14<+wesdiscordbot> but putting it in convincing writing is another story 20190330 18:33:24<+wesdiscordbot> because we as humans have a harder time connecting to that 20190330 18:33:25<+wesdiscordbot> well, I meant "not wasting meat", as you put it 20190330 18:33:48<+wesdiscordbot> that's why it's hard for the "farming humans for meat" doesn't work right now 20190330 18:34:30<+wesdiscordbot> @Yumi yeah 20190330 18:34:55<+wesdiscordbot> I guess it boils down to "write it better" or "change the idea" 20190330 18:34:56<+wesdiscordbot> I suppose that's also why DiD isn't about the dark sorcerer from TSG but about a benevolent tragic hero 20190330 18:35:21<+wesdiscordbot> I agree 20190330 18:36:10 * celticminstrel just added another comment to the github. 20190330 18:37:20< celticminstrel> By the way... does WoV bring up the saurian empire at all? 20190330 18:37:29< celticminstrel> I didn't read past the first scenario. 20190330 18:37:51< celticminstrel> But it seems to me that this could be a good opportunity to bring it up, since drakes and saurians share a faction in MP. 20190330 18:38:33<+wesdiscordbot> there are saurians in S8 20190330 18:40:38<+wesdiscordbot> @josteph I'm not really a forum person. Could I contact someone from creators directly about this instead? If so could you ping someone from them for me? 20190330 18:40:50< celticminstrel> I guess WoV does come after TRoW though, right? So the saurian empire has probably already fallen by then? I haven't played TRoW mind you, so I could be mistaken... 20190330 18:41:04< celticminstrel> Are ghype or The_Gnat on Discord? 20190330 18:41:57<+wesdiscordbot> yes, both of them are 20190330 18:42:06<+wesdiscordbot> @Rory Ping one of them 20190330 18:44:07<+wesdiscordbot> hmm 20190330 18:44:40<+wesdiscordbot> @The_Gnat @Rory 20190330 18:44:40<+wesdiscordbot> @ghype Do you have time to talk with me about changes and balance in Dunefolk? 20190330 18:44:43<+wesdiscordbot> oops 20190330 18:44:51<+wesdiscordbot> well now you're connected to 2 of them :p 20190330 18:44:52<+wesdiscordbot> Thank you. 20190330 18:44:58< celticminstrel> Personally I don't see any problem with pinging both. :P 20190330 18:47:41<+wesdiscordbot> xP 20190330 19:10:42<+wesdiscordbot> @Rory I am here 20190330 19:21:22-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87.static.drei.at] has joined #wesnoth 20190330 19:25:21<+wesdiscordbot> 'people make the argument that there are animals who eat things that might even be more intelligent than themselves, or cannibalize their own kind' That argument doesn't really work for me since it's not about non-sentient eating a more/an equally intelligent non-sentient, but about sentient eating sentient, making it questionable whether one can really apply that logic. 20190330 19:27:44<+wesdiscordbot> Btw, does anyone question whether (Wesnoth) Dragons eat people? Because tbh, I don't doubt that at all. It has a 'I'm so much superior to you that your thoughts don't matter' feel for me. It seems to make perfectly sense. 20190330 19:29:10<+wesdiscordbot> I reckon dragons would even eat drakes tbh 20190330 19:29:50<+wesdiscordbot> They have a more alien feel to me than drakes have ever had 20190330 19:29:59<+wesdiscordbot> People, as in general sentients. 20190330 19:30:32<+wesdiscordbot> Maybe because of loner vs society? 🤔 20190330 19:31:32<+wesdiscordbot> I think if you're going to do Orange-Blue morality, then it has to be at least somewhat central to the story being told. Otherwise it either (a) becomes a plothole on demand to shrug off why they're doing something that doesn't make sense to us, or (b) rubs most people the wrong way because like it or not everyone that will actually play the campaign is human. 20190330 19:31:40<+wesdiscordbot> Makes me almost think of Dragons as feral Drakes. xD 20190330 19:32:05< celticminstrel> I also think that blue and orange morality generally isn't something that will work well on the primary protagonists. 20190330 19:32:36<+wesdiscordbot> (Though Drakes are actually social Dragons.) 20190330 19:54:40<+wesdiscordbot> Honestly I don't understand what's so blue and orange about it 20190330 19:54:57<+wesdiscordbot> It's not human morality, for sure, but it's not like I can't imagine how a predator's mind might work 20190330 19:55:52<+wesdiscordbot> even modern humans treat their enemies' corpses disrespectfully when they want to dishonour or scare those enemies 20190330 19:58:39<+wesdiscordbot> it's weird having a campaign where you (a human) play as the protagonists, and said protagonists farm and eat enslaved humans. 20190330 19:58:47<+wesdiscordbot> lol 20190330 20:00:30<+wesdiscordbot> it's weird having a game where in every single campaign the humans win, just because I'm a human 20190330 20:01:18<+wesdiscordbot> There are several alternative lores proposed to the "drakes farm humans" lore, though 20190330 20:03:31<+wesdiscordbot> in Warcraft 2 you could play as the orcs against humans... I'm not an orc but that was still fun 20190330 20:09:17<+wesdiscordbot> I would assume that Warcraft 2 had some more definite reasoning behind why the orcs are doing what they're doing. Right now it doesn't really seem all that clear why the drakes are treating humans that way, if all the previous speculation is anything to go by. 20190330 20:10:17<+wesdiscordbot> Even so, I think it would be perfectly okay to let the player play as the bad guys. 20190330 20:10:52<+wesdiscordbot> yeah, that's perfectly fine. the drakes aren't supposed to be the bad guys though, I thought? 20190330 20:11:41<+wesdiscordbot> as written, the campaign tells how the drakes stopped eating humans 20190330 20:11:56<+wesdiscordbot> so at the end of the campaign, they aren't in open conflict with Great Continent races 20190330 20:15:35<+wesdiscordbot> then I'm kind of confused as to why this is controversial in the first place, honestly. 20190330 20:22:21<+wesdiscordbot> as written, S1 can be understood to mean drakes release slaves in order to hunt them for sport, and S12 says they don't eat humans on the Great Continent because humans have a numerical/military advantage over drakes 20190330 20:23:05<+wesdiscordbot> so it's not that they gained human moralities, it's just that they don't eat humans because if they did humans would go to war and win 20190330 20:26:39< celticminstrel> I dunno... 20190330 20:27:56< celticminstrel> But anyway, like Yumi said, if you're going to put problematic topics in the campaign, it needs to be written much better. S1 doesn't work for me. 20190330 20:28:10< celticminstrel> It's definitely easier to cut out the problematic topics. 20190330 20:45:14<+wesdiscordbot> yeah, change dialog to remove any notion of drakes eating humans for sport sounds like the way forward 20190330 20:45:46< celticminstrel> That's definitely a good start. I'd still prefer removing the references to slavery, too. 20190330 20:52:50<+wesdiscordbot> I commented about that on the PR 20190330 20:52:53<+wesdiscordbot> today 20190330 20:59:39-!- behalebabo [~behalebab@unaffiliated/behalebabo] has quit [Quit: behalebabo] 20190330 21:01:19-!- behalebabo [~behalebab@unaffiliated/behalebabo] has joined #wesnoth 20190330 21:24:16-!- behalebabo [~behalebab@unaffiliated/behalebabo] has quit [Quit: behalebabo] 20190330 21:31:13-!- claymore [~claymore@unaffiliated/claymore] has joined #wesnoth 20190330 21:39:16-!- behalebabo [~behalebab@unaffiliated/behalebabo] has joined #wesnoth 20190330 21:39:48-!- behalebabo [~behalebab@unaffiliated/behalebabo] has quit [Client Quit] 20190330 21:41:13-!- behalebabo [~behalebab@unaffiliated/behalebabo] has joined #wesnoth 20190330 22:16:02-!- claymore [~claymore@unaffiliated/claymore] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20190330 23:09:22-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20190330 23:47:18<+wesdiscordbot> I would like to thank @ghype and @Hejnewar for patiently answering my questions. It trully made a lot of things clear. ^_^ --- Log closed Sun Mar 31 00:00:37 2019