--- Log opened Tue Apr 02 00:00:40 2019 20190402 01:15:50-!- irker763 [~irker@wesnoth/umc-dev/bot/shikadibot] has quit [Quit: transmission timeout] 20190402 04:09:47-!- celmin|away [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has quit [Quit: And lo! The computer falls into a deep sleep, to awake again some other day!] 20190402 04:21:36-!- aeth [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20190402 04:23:37-!- aeth [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20190402 04:59:37-!- irker951 [~irker@wesnoth/umc-dev/bot/shikadibot] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20190402 04:59:37< irker951> wesnoth/wesnoth:master nemaara ae05019400 Add UtBS refactor to changelog AppVeyor: All builds passed 20190402 05:08:20-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20190402 05:51:28-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20190402 06:02:01-!- madmax28 [~madmax28@2001-4dd3-95a8-0-ba27-ebff-febc-e0cb.ipv6dyn.netcologne.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20190402 06:02:42-!- madmax28_ [~madmax28@2001-4dd3-90c4-0-ba27-ebff-febc-e0cb.ipv6dyn.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20190402 08:00:16-!- irker951 [~irker@wesnoth/umc-dev/bot/shikadibot] has quit [Quit: transmission timeout] 20190402 10:47:03-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20190402 12:35:28-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20190402 12:44:04-!- celticminstrel is now known as celmin|away 20190402 12:56:49-!- aeth [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20190402 12:58:57-!- aeth [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20190402 16:53:06-!- irker081 [~irker@wesnoth/umc-dev/bot/shikadibot] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20190402 16:53:06< irker081> wesnoth: sevu wesnoth:1.14 97b1f7630cad / data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/_main.cfg: Update _main.cfg https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/97b1f7630cadbb58710dc492a6ae65d8fe513e84 20190402 16:53:35< irker081> wesnoth: sevu wesnoth:master ed732cb0ba2f / data/campaigns/Legend_of_Wesmere/_main.cfg: Update _main.cfg https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/commit/ed732cb0ba2ffec091c4a21b0a29d178ca92c12f 20190402 16:56:47< Soliton> what a useless commit message. 20190402 16:59:20<+wesdiscordbot> I think it's the default message GitHub generates when editing files directly in the website. 20190402 17:04:09-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20190402 17:13:21< Soliton> you can easily change it though. 20190402 17:45:43-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20190402 18:58:44-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@2001:44b8:21b3:4001::100] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20190402 19:05:28-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@2001:44b8:21b3:4001::100] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.] 20190402 19:05:49-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@2001:44b8:21b3:4001::100] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20190402 19:20:18-!- Appleman1234 [~Appleman1@2001:44b8:21b3:4001::100] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20190402 19:54:08-!- irker081 [~irker@wesnoth/umc-dev/bot/shikadibot] has quit [Quit: transmission timeout] 20190402 21:49:50-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20190402 21:52:32-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20190402 22:21:23-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20190402 23:03:27-!- madmax28 [~madmax28@2001-4dd3-95a8-0-ba27-ebff-febc-e0cb.ipv6dyn.netcologne.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20190402 23:05:51-!- irker836 [~irker@wesnoth/umc-dev/bot/shikadibot] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20190402 23:05:52< irker836> wesnoth/wesnoth:1.14 sevu 97b1f7630c Update _main.cfg AppVeyor: All builds passed 20190402 23:24:16-!- madmax28 [~madmax28@2001-4dd6-eb42-0-ba27-ebff-febc-e0cb.ipv6dyn.netcologne.de] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20190402 23:30:55<+wesdiscordbot> @Pentarctagon the idea is to create a consistent narrative in the wesnoth campaigns 20190402 23:31:30<+wesdiscordbot> writing at this level is rarely about the choice to make 20190402 23:31:43<+wesdiscordbot> anyone can come up with an idea; it really depends on whether someone can execute on it to a reasonable level 20190402 23:32:14<+wesdiscordbot> i.e. you can justify most choices just by writing good enough to do it 20190402 23:33:11<+wesdiscordbot> why drakes and orcs are a related question: they're both sapient species who right now it seems like people are pushing to eat human meat (whether or not as a preferred source is another story) 20190402 23:33:28<+wesdiscordbot> if we treat them too differently, it will raise a lot of questions and is rather inconsistent 20190402 23:33:58<+wesdiscordbot> now, we could make that choice, just like we could make the choice to have drakes eat humans, but it would raise the bar for execution in writing 20190402 23:34:50<+wesdiscordbot> so that's why I think they should end up the same, since the inconsistency would require more writing to explain/make it seem reasonable 20190402 23:35:03<+wesdiscordbot> tldr: easier solution probably better 20190402 23:43:44<+wesdiscordbot> they're entirely different races with entirely different histories, etc though. it doesn't seem like there's any connection between one, the other, or both eating human meat other than the topic itself. 20190402 23:44:26<+wesdiscordbot> it's exactly the topic that's problematic 20190402 23:44:38<+wesdiscordbot> if someone brings up that "drakes eating human meat doesn't make sense" 20190402 23:44:43<+wesdiscordbot> then the same probably applies to orcs 20190402 23:44:58<+wesdiscordbot> I still dont know the context for this discussion and I don't know if i want to 20190402 23:45:07<+wesdiscordbot> drakes eat human meat in the current iteration of WoV 20190402 23:45:12<+wesdiscordbot> I know that 20190402 23:45:16<+wesdiscordbot> I don't want to know more 😛 20190402 23:45:21<+wesdiscordbot> okay 20190402 23:45:44<+wesdiscordbot> but my point is that it's very easy/quick to make the connection that, "but wait, orcs do it, so why doesn't it make sense for drakes?" 20190402 23:45:56<+wesdiscordbot> It honestly seems a little dumb 20190402 23:45:58< wedge009> What's WoV? I was going to ask if there are any mentions of either drakes or orcs eating humans in existing 'official' lore. 20190402 23:45:59<+wesdiscordbot> even given that they have vastly different biologies/histories/habitats 20190402 23:46:27<+wesdiscordbot> so to elaborate on it would require improved execution 20190402 23:46:37<+wesdiscordbot> @Yumi I disagree with that. it's like saying that because volcanic basalt is black, that sidewalk would also be expected to be black. 20190402 23:46:41<+wesdiscordbot> WoV is wings of victory, the drake campaign that's going to be added in 1.15 20190402 23:46:52< wedge009> Ah, hence the discussion. 20190402 23:46:55<+wesdiscordbot> yeah 20190402 23:47:25<+wesdiscordbot> well you can disagree, but apparently in these threads, a lot of people immediately jumped to thinking about orcs 20190402 23:47:37<+wesdiscordbot> wedge009: see also https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/issues/4007 20190402 23:47:49<+wesdiscordbot> and regardless, I think touching on the subject of human meat should be consistent for other sapient races 20190402 23:48:23<+wesdiscordbot> I think people jumped to orcs because there are already mainline dialogue that supports orcs eating other sapient races. 20190402 23:48:27< wedge009> I haven't played it. Is it crucial to the story? I'd be inclined to leave it out. Also I don't see an immediate connection with orcs having to eat humans too (outside of extreme circumstances like starvation). 20190402 23:48:35<+wesdiscordbot> ya know. I said I wanted worldbuilding but this is just.... :bowman: 20190402 23:48:36<+wesdiscordbot> reason is if WoV does introduce it, but we don't have a strong (read strong) support for it in mainline 20190402 23:48:37<+wesdiscordbot> it reads weird 20190402 23:48:46<+wesdiscordbot> @Vultraz careful what you wish for 😛 20190402 23:49:11<+wesdiscordbot> :run: 20190402 23:49:17<+wesdiscordbot> wedge009: it's not strictly crucial to the story, there are other ways to handle it 20190402 23:49:22<+wesdiscordbot> people are being stubborn to change it, though 20190402 23:49:33< wedge009> People meaning the author/s? 20190402 23:49:40<+wesdiscordbot> among others 20190402 23:49:49<+wesdiscordbot> wedge009: it's also basically the very first bit of dialogue that mentions they release enslaved humans so they can go hunt them down and eat them 20190402 23:49:57<+wesdiscordbot> which is just weird IMO 20190402 23:50:04<+wesdiscordbot> .... 20190402 23:50:13<+wesdiscordbot> are we sure this is a good campaign to add? 20190402 23:50:23<+wesdiscordbot> to have as a drake campaign, yes 20190402 23:50:33<+wesdiscordbot> I know we want a drake campaign 20190402 23:50:39<+wesdiscordbot> is it a good campaign 20190402 23:50:42<+wesdiscordbot> no 20190402 23:50:53<+wesdiscordbot> it's meh 20190402 23:51:03<+wesdiscordbot> then maybe let's not add it. 20190402 23:51:14<+wesdiscordbot> I think that would be disrespectful to sigurd, still 20190402 23:51:21<+wesdiscordbot> it's not bad 20190402 23:51:22<+wesdiscordbot> Let us consider for a moment 20190402 23:51:23<+wesdiscordbot> only meh 20190402 23:51:29<+wesdiscordbot> and we have "bad" already in mainline 20190402 23:51:34<+wesdiscordbot> imo it passes the bar 20190402 23:51:44<+wesdiscordbot> it's just not great 20190402 23:51:49<+wesdiscordbot> the real goal of the campaign is to show the drakes getting to the Great Continent, which is good to have. 20190402 23:51:54<+wesdiscordbot> not great =/= bad 20190402 23:52:14<+wesdiscordbot> yeah, there is nothing wrong with the plot 20190402 23:52:20<+wesdiscordbot> it's just the execution 20190402 23:52:33<+wesdiscordbot> celmin said it too, there isn't really a problem with drakes eating humans, it's just how it's handled 20190402 23:52:42<+wesdiscordbot> in writing 20190402 23:52:58<+wesdiscordbot> 1.15/1.16 is supposed to be the last release series before it's sunset in favor of 2.0. If in 2.0 all campaigns get major revamps, how long will people really get to enjoy it? Should we not hold off on adding it until the execution can be improved and add it to 2.0 as a high-quality campaign instead of in the soon-to-be-retired 1.x series as a "meh" campaign 20190402 23:53:44<+wesdiscordbot> I think you're going to run into the same sort of problem revamping all mainline campaigns as you did with wanting to replace all the art, honestly. 20190402 23:53:59<+wesdiscordbot> if you intend to revamp and add it to 2.0 as a high quality campaign 20190402 23:54:02<+wesdiscordbot> it'll still be a long time coming 20190402 23:54:15<+wesdiscordbot> I suggest the list to start with TRoW, Httt, DiD, Utbs, and TSG 20190402 23:54:19<+wesdiscordbot> then we can consider others 20190402 23:54:21<+wesdiscordbot> or 20190402 23:54:23<+wesdiscordbot> but that's already 5 20190402 23:54:29<+wesdiscordbot> we could simply ensure it's high-quality now 20190402 23:54:35<+wesdiscordbot> why do we want to add a Meh campaign 20190402 23:54:43<+wesdiscordbot> if we're only going to need to do more work to make it better 20190402 23:54:57<+wesdiscordbot> because we have 0 mainline campaigns focused on a default faction 20190402 23:55:02<+wesdiscordbot> it adds an interesting bit of history to the drakes 20190402 23:55:07<+wesdiscordbot> and it plays okay 20190402 23:55:32<+wesdiscordbot> we shouldn't let the perfect become the enemy of the good to paraphrase someone or other 20190402 23:55:37<+wesdiscordbot> yes 20190402 23:55:43<+wesdiscordbot> we do not need to be perfectionists 20190402 23:55:45<+wesdiscordbot> here 20190402 23:56:03<+wesdiscordbot> I'm not saying we need to be perfectionists 20190402 23:56:11<+wesdiscordbot> I'm saying we should aim higher for meh 20190402 23:56:18<+wesdiscordbot> sure 20190402 23:56:27<+wesdiscordbot> that's why the discussion is going on now 20190402 23:56:29<+wesdiscordbot> There is also to consider that Wesnoth 1.x is 1.x and Wesnoth 2.0 is 2.0. Do we really want to have it the very same content? 20190402 23:56:34<+wesdiscordbot> no 20190402 23:56:35<+wesdiscordbot> we don't 20190402 23:56:42<+wesdiscordbot> I can elaborate on that later when the time comes 20190402 23:56:57<+wesdiscordbot> (or now if you really like lol) 20190402 23:58:02< wedge009> I think the only drake-focused campaign I tried was Flight of Freedom and that was a long time ago. 20190402 23:58:07<+wesdiscordbot> anyway, aiming higher than meh is fine, it just depends on whether someone with more writing skill (both campaign and dialogue writing) comes along to improve WoV 20190402 23:58:10<+wesdiscordbot> I think you need to be very careful with how much non-programmatic content you throw out. Blanket statements of revamping every mainline campaign, for example, just aren't realistic except in the long term. 20190402 23:59:07<+wesdiscordbot> it's not something that would likely be ready by 2.0's full release, even. --- Log closed Wed Apr 03 00:00:05 2019