--- Log opened Fri Apr 26 00:00:28 2019 20190426 00:12:58< celticminstrel> Thoughts: It's probably not particularly possible unfortunately. 20190426 00:13:09< celticminstrel> Some of it might be automatable. 20190426 00:13:44< celticminstrel> But release is an inherently complex process. 20190426 00:13:50< celticminstrel> I won't say there's no way you can simplify things. 20190426 00:14:41< celticminstrel> But updating values in various places? You probably can't do anything about that. Uploading builds to multiple places? Probably can't do anything about that either (though it might be automatable somehow). 20190426 00:15:01< celticminstrel> Duplicating the hashes to multiple places, that might be possible to simplify, I guess. 20190426 00:17:43-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20190426 01:14:12<+wesdiscordbot> well, first off...why don't we move all the download metadata to one place where it can be easily fetched. Instead of updating the main site, wiki, and forum post, I propose we keep everything on the site (perhaps on a new, dedicated download page). 20190426 01:14:27<+wesdiscordbot> main site( 20190426 01:14:29<+wesdiscordbot> ** 20190426 01:16:40<+wesdiscordbot> (speaking of - what do you think about Discord distribution?) 20190426 01:17:19<+wesdiscordbot> We just got our discord dev license so now we can set up a Discord store page (needs approval) if we want 20190426 01:17:51<+wesdiscordbot> do you want to code your proposed solution yourself? 20190426 01:51:33<+wesdiscordbot> Greetings, friends! Been away for some months. Is that project to bring Wesnoth into a new engine still a thing? 20190426 01:55:32<+wesdiscordbot> yes 20190426 01:55:35<+wesdiscordbot> progressing well 20190426 02:00:09<+wesdiscordbot> Glad to hear! 😃 I suppose it's too early for any publically available alpha clients 20190426 02:00:33<+wesdiscordbot> wayy too early 😛 20190426 02:00:47<+wesdiscordbot> 😄 20190426 02:01:02<+wesdiscordbot> but you can easily check out what we have so far by cloning the Haldric repo (https://github.com/wesnoth/haldric) and running it in Godot 3.1 20190426 02:01:44<+wesdiscordbot> Oh, sweet. I just might do that when I get some free time. Thanks, Vultraz /o/ 20190426 03:01:29< wedge009> Discord as an addition to or replacement of existing distribution options? 20190426 03:01:58<+wesdiscordbot> addition but it's really not worth it 20190426 03:03:06< wedge009> Seems like everyone wants to make their own 'store' platform, there's too much of this walled garden mentality. 20190426 03:03:30<+wesdiscordbot> Steam needs the competition tbf 20190426 03:04:55< wedge009> They just started the problem, I think. 20190426 03:14:05<+wesdiscordbot> 🤷 20190426 03:28:32< celticminstrel> [Apr 25@9:14:12pm] wesdiscordbot: well, first off...why don't we move all the download metadata to one place where it can be easily fetched. Instead of updating the main site, wiki, and forum post, I propose we keep everything on the site (perhaps on a new, dedicated download page). 20190426 03:28:33< celticminstrel> Redundancy. 20190426 03:28:55< celticminstrel> It's better to have it in more than one place. 20190426 03:29:11< celticminstrel> Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean manually uploading it to more than one place, though. 20190426 03:29:11<+wesdiscordbot> not really 20190426 03:29:14<+wesdiscordbot> it's a pain in the ass 20190426 03:29:24<+wesdiscordbot> the store[s] are already reundant 20190426 03:29:34<+wesdiscordbot> redundancy 20190426 03:29:54< celticminstrel> It probably wouldn't be too hard to either have a script that uploads it to all the relevant locations for you, OR set up something so that certain locations automatically mirror one of the locations which you then manually upload it to. 20190426 03:31:48< celticminstrel> (We're talking about the checksum, right? Or maybe changelog or something?) 20190426 03:32:41< celticminstrel> As for multiple locations for the actual binaries, that's entirely unavoidable if you want to support any storefronts. 20190426 03:33:10< celticminstrel> There will probably always be people who don't want to use Steam. 20190426 03:34:01< celticminstrel> That said, there's no reason to use SourceForge specifically if that happens to be a particular pain; there are probably alternatives, right? (I've heard itch.io is really good from a dev standpoint, though not so great from a player standpoint.) 20190426 03:35:52< celticminstrel> On the other hand, my impression was that it was Steam that was more of a pain rather than SourceForge...? 20190426 03:36:34< celticminstrel> FTR I don't think the underlying goal of simplifying things is a bad one, I just don't think there's a whole lot of simplification you can actually do. 20190426 03:37:33<+wesdiscordbot> uploading to a or b is simple 20190426 03:38:17< celticminstrel> Well, you basically can't reduce the number of places you upload it to. 20190426 03:38:37<+wesdiscordbot> but the whole process of pushing an update to Steam is simple 20190426 03:38:40<+wesdiscordbot> packagers upload 20190426 03:38:44<+wesdiscordbot> i go in a copypaste the changelog 20190426 03:38:45<+wesdiscordbot> done 20190426 03:39:13< celticminstrel> Huh, okay. 20190426 03:39:26<+wesdiscordbot> the pain in the ass is the rigmarole that is the "regular" releases 20190426 03:39:35< celticminstrel> Well, I suppose there could be some improvement in there, but not a whole lot. 20190426 03:39:49<+wesdiscordbot> the fact that Steam is so easy is why they get updates first 20190426 03:39:58< celticminstrel> I mean there's good reason for pretty much all of that "rigmarole". 20190426 03:41:06< celticminstrel> The checksum is a way to prove it's not infected, for example. Mirroring them on a server controlled by Wesnoth protects against corrupted checksums (or something inserting adware and regenerating the checksum). 20190426 03:41:09<+wesdiscordbot> as opposed to packagers uploading to sf, going to SF, downloading checksums, updating the wiki, writing the forum post, copying shit to the forum post, updating the frontpage, shadowm refreshing the frontpage, updating start 1.14, running pot updates on that... 20190426 03:41:22<+wesdiscordbot> Writing the forum post is the only part that can't be automated 20190426 03:41:33< celticminstrel> Updating values is just a necessity when bumping the version. Admittedly the total number of places the version is used might be reduceable. 20190426 03:42:05<+wesdiscordbot> Also I don't go onto SF to get the checksums, I just read them off the website's filesystem 20190426 03:42:11< celticminstrel> @Iris I bet even writing the forum post could be automated (at least as a template posted to the moderator forum which a real human then edits and reposts). 20190426 03:42:19<+wesdiscordbot> But the sizes do indeed come from SF.net so people don't complain at us for giving different valus 20190426 03:42:30<+wesdiscordbot> Since SF.net appears to use weird multiples 20190426 03:42:53<+wesdiscordbot> celticminstrel: What do you think we do atm? 20190426 03:42:54< celticminstrel> Like a MB vs MiB difference? 20190426 03:43:17< celticminstrel> Oh you already do that, okay. 20190426 03:43:19<+wesdiscordbot> We literally just take the existing post, clear the list of changes part, replace a few numbers here and there and update the checksums and sizes 20190426 03:43:28<+wesdiscordbot> And then add the list of changes 20190426 03:43:29< celticminstrel> Ah, so not quite, but still close enough I guess. 20190426 03:43:46<+wesdiscordbot> But the list of changes didn't use to be automatable because HALF OF THE DEVS USED TO NOT UPDATE THE CHANGELOG WITH THE IMPORTANT CHANGES THEY MADE 20190426 03:44:05< celticminstrel> Pretty sure some still don't... 20190426 03:44:05<+wesdiscordbot> This seems to have changed in 1.14. Or at least that's how it seems to be now 20190426 03:44:17< celticminstrel> Maybe they've become better at it, I dunno. 20190426 03:44:37< celticminstrel> I'm pretty sure there are some changelog entries missing on master for things I either did or had a hand in reviewing. 20190426 03:44:51<+wesdiscordbot> I'd like to A: consolidate metadata in one place and refer back to that place if possible (I proposed a database array to shadowm) and B: automate as many uploads as possible. 20190426 03:45:11< celticminstrel> "database array"? 20190426 03:45:25<+wesdiscordbot> an array of release metadata 20190426 03:45:43< celticminstrel> So now "database" has disappeared from the picture? 20190426 03:45:53< celticminstrel> But why is it an "array"? 20190426 03:45:57<+wesdiscordbot> ...... 20190426 03:46:01<+wesdiscordbot> A LIST 20190426 03:46:02<+wesdiscordbot> IN A DATABASE 20190426 03:46:19< celticminstrel> So you plan to set up a database somewhere that has the data in it? 20190426 03:46:32< celticminstrel> BTW, databases don't deal in lists or arrays. They deal in tables, essentially. 20190426 03:46:44<+wesdiscordbot> not mongodb, which is what I'm used to 20190426 03:46:49< celticminstrel> (I mean, unless you use PostgreSQL which has an array type.) 20190426 03:46:57<+wesdiscordbot> (I know we use mysql though) 20190426 03:47:58< celticminstrel> Without knowing much about MongoDB I'm still fairly sure you're wrong about that, because it's fundamentally not what a database is. 20190426 03:48:14<+wesdiscordbot> will you stop being pedantic 20190426 03:48:17<+wesdiscordbot> you know exactly what I mean 20190426 03:48:27< celticminstrel> I'm not sure why you would assume that. 20190426 03:48:37< celticminstrel> Still I think I get the gist of the suggestion tho. 20190426 03:48:43<+wesdiscordbot> call it table rows or documents or whatever 20190426 03:48:47<+wesdiscordbot> same difference 20190426 03:48:54< celticminstrel> Records is the normal term. 20190426 03:49:14< celticminstrel> Sometimes I suppose you might see them called tuples, if you're into the mathematical side of it. 20190426 03:49:23< celticminstrel> Rows does work too though. 20190426 03:50:02< celticminstrel> Anyway, what metadata are we talking about, anyway? I know there's the checksum, is there something else you'd put there as well tho? 20190426 03:50:32<+wesdiscordbot> links, potentially 20190426 03:50:40< celticminstrel> What do you mean? 20190426 03:50:46< celticminstrel> Links to downloads? 20190426 03:50:56<+wesdiscordbot> yes 20190426 03:50:59<+wesdiscordbot> imagine we have a script 20190426 03:52:18<+wesdiscordbot> it takes the packages (perhaps it could be made to package stuff too) then grabs the checksums and sizes, upload to the relevant sources, and writes all the data to our DB table or whatever. 20190426 03:52:33<+wesdiscordbot> might or might not be possible 🤔 20190426 03:52:33< celticminstrel> Well, it sounds doable. 20190426 03:52:39< celticminstrel> Potentially at least. 20190426 03:53:07< celticminstrel> Unless Steam or the Mac Store has measures to prevent automated uploading. Which I wouldn't really expect, but who knows. 20190426 03:53:24<+wesdiscordbot> I'm not even entirely sure how actual package uploading happens for Steam 20190426 03:53:31< celticminstrel> Eh? 20190426 03:53:38<+wesdiscordbot> YOU OF ALL PEOPLE SHOULD KNOW 20190426 03:53:40< celticminstrel> I thought you said it was easy. 20190426 03:53:47< celticminstrel> How can you say that and not know how it works? 20190426 03:54:30<+wesdiscordbot> ISTR it is easy. 20190426 03:54:37<+wesdiscordbot> The problem with automating the wiki text incidentally 20190426 03:54:50<+wesdiscordbot> is special cases like what happened with 1.14.7/1.14.7a/"1.14.8" 20190426 03:54:54<+wesdiscordbot> for macOS 20190426 03:55:50<+wesdiscordbot> (that extends to the front page and release notes, obviously. Incidentally at no point have you remembered that I have to deal with the release notes still) 20190426 03:56:11<+wesdiscordbot> I was thinking of eliminating the wiki page in favor of a wesnoth.org/download page 20190426 03:56:25<+wesdiscordbot> though that's probably lateral 20190426 03:56:27<+wesdiscordbot> You told me you were thinking about URLs 20190426 03:56:31<+wesdiscordbot> now that I think about this 20190426 03:56:35<+wesdiscordbot> Not an actual custom page 20190426 03:57:05<+wesdiscordbot> an actual custom page yes. Else I wouldn't have DMed you about it. 20190426 03:57:14<+wesdiscordbot> Also I think it'd be easier to script MW with the API than write a custom script for a single page 20190426 03:57:46<+wesdiscordbot> I had to enable the API already because the upload files option in the fancy edit form requires it for some reason 20190426 03:58:25<+wesdiscordbot> If we went down the custom page route I'd axe the Download section in the front page 20190426 03:59:29-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has quit [Quit: And lo! The computer falls into a deep sleep, to awake again some other day!] 20190426 04:02:35<+wesdiscordbot> wouldn't such a page just be doing a db query though? I imagined the script to be something the packagers would run... though... not sure how one would deal with auth 🤔 20190426 04:03:02<+wesdiscordbot> Sigh 20190426 04:03:13<+wesdiscordbot> So what do we do if I need to take the database server down? 20190426 04:03:35<+wesdiscordbot> Right now the front page doesn't require the database server 20190426 04:05:08<+wesdiscordbot> er....hm. good point. but that's not very frequent, at least... 20190426 04:05:29<+wesdiscordbot> No but the database server is a really nasty dependency to have 20190426 04:05:50<+wesdiscordbot> Especially during backup jobs when our host just plain freaks out and sometimes can render the wiki and forums inaccessible for minutes 20190426 04:07:24<+wesdiscordbot> wait a sec - I thought we had everything running on one server 20190426 04:07:52<+wesdiscordbot> Yes we do 20190426 04:08:01<+wesdiscordbot> Well, yes and no 20190426 04:08:10<+wesdiscordbot> But you don't need to know what the 'no' side entails 20190426 04:12:07<+wesdiscordbot> this is going to get complicated isn't it. 😐 especially if later we also need some sort of DB for player account data! do we put everything in one db? 3 db instances? 20190426 04:13:40<+wesdiscordbot> @Denivarius btw, what did you mean that time you suggested Firebase? What for? 20190426 04:15:02<+wesdiscordbot> We have one database server, you're not getting more than one 20190426 04:15:24<+wesdiscordbot> We have multiple databases running on the same server obviously 20190426 04:19:12<+wesdiscordbot> @Vultraz yeah you could use it for player account data 20190426 04:20:20<+wesdiscordbot> but why would we need/should use that specifically? 20190426 04:43:02-!- TC01 [~quassel@venus.arosser.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20190426 04:43:19-!- TC01 [~quassel@mobile-166-171-58-188.mycingular.net] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20190426 05:53:32<+wesdiscordbot> the first thing to do either way would be to define what data you would actually want to store. 20190426 06:49:22<+wesdiscordbot> for player accounts? 20190426 06:58:21<+wesdiscordbot> yeah 20190426 07:03:40<+wesdiscordbot> it'd be hard to say if firebase or anything else is a good solution if it isn't clear what you would use it for. 20190426 07:04:17<+wesdiscordbot> so far I was thinking MP stats an addons 20190426 07:05:56<+wesdiscordbot> you mean like having an official sort of add-on people could download to display stats on what maps/factions/etc they've played? 20190426 07:06:28<+wesdiscordbot> er 20190426 07:06:31<+wesdiscordbot> and addons* 20190426 07:06:39<+wesdiscordbot> addons would be tied to accounts 20190426 07:10:28<+wesdiscordbot> what would MP stats entail though? that could be just basic information like how many times someone's played a particular map all the way down to where each unit moved each turn of a game. 20190426 07:10:53<+wesdiscordbot> most basic would be match history with replays 20190426 07:11:08<+wesdiscordbot> (replays optional i suppose) 20190426 07:13:32<+wesdiscordbot> friend and block lists 20190426 07:13:40<+wesdiscordbot> possibly general stats 20190426 07:13:48<+wesdiscordbot> "you played n games with Loyalists!" 20190426 07:13:56<+wesdiscordbot> "your most played map is Isar's!" 20190426 07:25:39<+wesdiscordbot> accounts are already required, so everyone has a user id, which would not be difficult to associate add-ons to. replays are also already saved and stored, so those could probably be provided via a link to the file on replays.wesnoth.org. then it sounds like you'd need a history of game ids with the users playing, their factions, the map, and anything else. friends and blocked users would also just be one user id 20190426 07:25:40<+wesdiscordbot> associated to other user ids. I don't know if maybe firebase provides something else, but none of that sounds especially exotic. 20190426 08:01:47-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20190426 08:24:58-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 20190426 08:50:03-!- irker460 [~irker@wesnoth/umc-dev/bot/shikadibot] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20190426 08:50:03< irker460> wesnoth/wesnoth:master nemaara ff49dbd733 THoT S5: replace scenario with new gamep AppVeyor: All builds passed 20190426 09:04:29-!- boucman_work [~boucman@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20190426 09:16:41-!- boucman_work [~boucman@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20190426 09:50:14< irker460> wesnoth/wesnoth:master nemaara 92493fc6be THoT S5: replace scenario with new gamep AppVeyor: All builds passed 20190426 09:51:59-!- boucman_work [~boucman@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20190426 09:52:15-!- boucman_work [~boucman@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20190426 11:30:01-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20190426 12:01:00-!- ToBeFree [ToBeFree@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20190426 12:04:05-!- ToBeFree [ToBeFree@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20190426 12:17:23< irker460> wesnoth/wesnoth:master nemaara 976a59ea9f THoT S5: replace scenario with new gamep AppVeyor: All builds passed 20190426 12:24:10-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20190426 13:43:43-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20190426 14:02:19-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20190426 14:38:51-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20190426 15:15:49-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20190426 15:17:27-!- irker460 [~irker@wesnoth/umc-dev/bot/shikadibot] has quit [Quit: transmission timeout] 20190426 15:45:43-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20190426 16:41:41-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20190426 16:45:32-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20190426 17:19:30-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20190426 17:24:51-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20190426 17:47:24-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20190426 19:10:40-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20190426 19:10:41-!- stikonas_ [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20190426 19:11:37-!- stikonas_ is now known as stikonas 20190426 19:28:54-!- APic [apic@apic.name] has quit [Quit: *fupp*] 20190426 20:43:47-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20190426 21:46:14-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20190426 22:25:57-!- boucman [~rosen@wesnoth/developer/boucman] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] --- Log closed Sat Apr 27 00:00:30 2019