--- Log opened Fri Apr 19 00:00:36 2019 20190419 00:10:52<+wesdiscordbot> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/231976805987385345/568589284584718346/22fphs.png 20190419 00:12:39<+wesdiscordbot> o no 20190419 00:12:48<+wesdiscordbot> now there are 2 board memebers 20190419 00:13:07<+wesdiscordbot> goddamn spambots 20190419 00:13:22<+wesdiscordbot> hmm 20190419 00:13:29<+wesdiscordbot> how do they join this server? 20190419 00:13:51<+wesdiscordbot> maybe just expire all curent invitations and make new ones? 20190419 00:14:07<+wesdiscordbot> so their links would get obsolete 20190419 00:14:20<+wesdiscordbot> pretty sure that person was just a spammer, not a bot 20190419 00:14:31<+wesdiscordbot> arrgh 20190419 00:14:34<+wesdiscordbot> This is a verified server, we can't expire the verified link 20190419 00:14:37<+wesdiscordbot> using actual huimans 20190419 00:14:41<+wesdiscordbot> now that's cheating 20190419 00:14:44< celmin|away> XD 20190419 00:14:47<+wesdiscordbot> :thonk: 20190419 00:14:52<+wesdiscordbot> arrrgh, I'm a pirate ☠ 20190419 00:15:03< celmin|away> If you read back you can see it's obviously a human. They literally said they want to get in trouble at one point. 20190419 00:15:08-!- celmin|away is now known as celticminstrel 20190419 00:15:16< celticminstrel> Can't imagine why tho 20190419 00:15:38<+wesdiscordbot> well, I suppose they're pleased with the result then. 20190419 00:27:57-!- psymin [~psymin@69.146.8.222] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20190419 00:33:42<+wesdiscordbot> did I miss somebody posting naughty links 20190419 00:33:48<+wesdiscordbot> some smut perhaps 20190419 00:33:52<+wesdiscordbot> hot sexy quenoth elves dot com 20190419 00:34:04<+wesdiscordbot> come spy on these desert beauties in the oasis 20190419 00:51:24< celticminstrel> :| 20190419 00:52:39<+wesdiscordbot> @Hubris don't do that 20190419 00:52:52< celticminstrel> Yeah not a good idea. 20190419 00:53:31<+wesdiscordbot> see rule 5 for any concerns 20190419 01:40:12<+wesdiscordbot> @Yumi sorry it was meant to be a real dumb joke 20190419 01:47:37<+wesdiscordbot> plz2forgive 20190419 03:08:56<+wesdiscordbot> @loonycyborg its not a bot, this is a real man, who starts spam 20190419 04:00:51<+wesdiscordbot> @mattsc you wouldn't be completely wrong in saying that, the shamen did dodge a fair bunch 20190419 04:01:19<+wesdiscordbot> but I think it would have been fine had the orcs hit a bit more 20190419 05:27:56-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has quit [Quit: And lo! The computer falls into a deep sleep, to awake again some other day!] 20190419 07:28:05<+wesdiscordbot> I found an issue with LoW scenario 3 The orc leaders don't want to send their units out to reinforce the siege, which makes breaking the encirclement really easy 20190419 07:28:05<+wesdiscordbot> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/231976805987385345/568699322653212673/LoW-Kalian_under_Attack_replay.gz 20190419 07:30:08<+wesdiscordbot> Edit: seems like the issue is with side 7's leader only, after Kalenz shows up 20190419 07:40:38<+wesdiscordbot> I don't know if spam is a serious issue on this server or not but there are bots that can gatekeep entry with pseudo-captchas 20190419 07:40:52<+wesdiscordbot> but if it's a real person then that's useless I guess 20190419 07:41:23<+wesdiscordbot> >mfw I've recently been yelled at for "spamming" in other servers for changing my nickname to my blog url 20190419 07:46:01<+wesdiscordbot> ngl I'd also yell at you for that 20190419 08:31:23-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth 20190419 08:40:12<+wesdiscordbot> @ever--- It also makes it really hard to defeat him before turns run out. 20190419 08:51:42<+wesdiscordbot> @Konrad2 Really? I just took over the whole map and then suicided some ally units to exhaust them 20190419 08:52:45<+wesdiscordbot> I think it's possible to beat it without recruiting as kalenz, although I think that nets less gold overall because of less villages stolen 20190419 08:53:35<+wesdiscordbot> To be fair, I really don't like sacrificing units, so I didn't do that. 20190419 08:54:33<+wesdiscordbot> The green units don't follow you anyway, might as well have them take the beating for your "elite army" to clean up 20190419 08:55:22<+wesdiscordbot> They don't follow you, yes. But they wait for you until you return. 20190419 08:55:51<+wesdiscordbot> How do you play Knalga against Loyalists on Freelands? It seems really difficult to make anything happen, I've tried Hodorian rushes on first night but it feels like Loyal should be able to produce a fine ZoC to protect against backstabs for at least first watch (and then you can leave one vill and kill an outlaw at dawn if needed) 20190419 08:56:07<+wesdiscordbot> But I guess that's actually a spoiler? I'm not sure anymore what's written in the scenario objectives. 20190419 08:56:15<+wesdiscordbot> In a longer game, dwarvish fighters and guardsmen seem to get broken still by Loyalist attack at day 20190419 08:56:56<+wesdiscordbot> Hmmm interesting Never played that far into it actually, although I am aware of the big twist in the middle 20190419 08:57:07<+wesdiscordbot> As Knalga, should I try to attack on the side with two villages instead of the side with the one isolated vill? 20190419 08:58:04<+wesdiscordbot> It feels like Knalgans basically have to make something happen early on, or the game goes long, Loyal gets a good unit composition and eventually either smashes you or starts bullying you out of village money for good 20190419 09:03:27<+wesdiscordbot> I'm also considering maybe even taking 2 ulfs along just for first night pressure on the side with one village, the main problem with that plan that I see would be holding the village after night 20190419 09:03:42<+wesdiscordbot> as it would be difficult to put anything really beefy on there 20190419 09:03:58<+wesdiscordbot> and sacrificial ulfs are expensive 20190419 09:04:02<+wesdiscordbot> Ulf lives matter! 20190419 09:13:55-!- Narrat [~Narrat@p2E511F0E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20190419 10:13:40<+wesdiscordbot> After looking at this a bit more closely, I think it might be quite important to have a quick gryphon 20190419 10:46:36-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87.static.drei.at] has joined #wesnoth 20190419 12:58:05-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has joined #wesnoth 20190419 13:38:45<+wesdiscordbot> @Hardwood On your replay, nah, there's no way Fred would have won that even with significant luck on his side. It was really just meant as a a joke (and the stats are pretty even anyway at the end, I checked now). 20190419 13:38:47<+wesdiscordbot> In general, I am not trying to get Fred to play as well as a human. Well, I would try that if I knew how to, but I don't. If I ever get this AI to be even just a moderately interesting opponent that doesn't make too many mistakes, I'd be very happy with that. 20190419 13:42:57<+wesdiscordbot> People wouldn't like a game that always kicks their asses anyway 😛 20190419 13:44:34<+wesdiscordbot> Age of Empires 2 AI would disagree... >.< 20190419 13:45:06<+wesdiscordbot> I doubt it. 20190419 13:45:31<+wesdiscordbot> All games have rather larger window for you to do well 20190419 13:45:37<+wesdiscordbot> or at least complete campaign 20190419 13:45:41<+wesdiscordbot> Oh no... 20190419 13:46:03<+wesdiscordbot> many of them have difficulty levels 20190419 13:46:04<+wesdiscordbot> called like 20190419 13:46:05<+wesdiscordbot> "impossible" 20190419 13:46:26<+wesdiscordbot> and after that people publish videos on youtube of them beating game on that setting anyway 20190419 13:46:38<+wesdiscordbot> such names are pure flattery 20190419 13:46:47<+wesdiscordbot> more honest would be "near impossible" 20190419 13:47:12<+wesdiscordbot> Someone even did "I wanna be the guy" on impossible 😛 20190419 13:47:17<+wesdiscordbot> Please check it for yourself. Yeah and most people have trobule (can only thru cheese basicly) with beating 3 out of let me chceck how may. 20190419 13:49:18<+wesdiscordbot> yes higher difficulty levels are mostly implemented by giving arbitrary bonuses to AI 20190419 13:49:25<+wesdiscordbot> Out of 5. With knowladge of builds and shortcuts most people still have trobule with 3rd out of 5 ais. 20190419 13:49:30<+wesdiscordbot> and only fair to use cheese to counter it 😛 20190419 13:50:03<+wesdiscordbot> Here is a thing AoE 2 AI (not oryginal ai) doesnt gat any bonuses i belive. 20190419 13:50:17<+wesdiscordbot> aoe is rts right? 20190419 13:50:20<+wesdiscordbot> YEs. 20190419 13:50:25<+wesdiscordbot> I don't really like rtses 20190419 13:51:01<+wesdiscordbot> it's all about click-click-click-click 20190419 13:51:30<+wesdiscordbot> and they really like to punish you for trying to have fun and looking around the world and setting up base and stuff 20190419 13:52:04<+wesdiscordbot> many of them don't even have playable pause 20190419 13:54:03<+wesdiscordbot> Yes it is. Easiest level is for having fun. 20190419 13:55:01<+wesdiscordbot> the thing is I get bored with particular rts long before I'm good enough with it to keep up with sound strategy 20190419 13:55:17<+wesdiscordbot> those games are just not for me 20190419 13:55:19<+wesdiscordbot> oh well 20190419 13:57:12<+wesdiscordbot> Actually highest level of difficulty is getting additional resources. Sorry i was wrong. Still in comparison to other rts games like Supreme commander 2 its not much. (In SC2 Ai can spawn units anywhere on the map outside of players vision range and gets like 2x as much resources as players.) 20190419 13:57:58<+wesdiscordbot> I guess developing proper Ai is just unprofitable. 20190419 13:59:27<+wesdiscordbot> I don't play RTSs either, but I've read enough about the AIs going into them that I know the challenges are very different than for TBSs. (And yeah, they usually use a very small percentage of the resources for AI development.) 20190419 14:00:24<+wesdiscordbot> In any case, we don't have to worry that any AI I write for Wesnoth will kick the players' asses. 😛 20190419 14:00:39<+wesdiscordbot> It depends. The Space Rangers 2 game had a built-in RTS for planetary combat, and its AI had to be artificially dumbed down since it was humanly imposible to defeat it. 20190419 14:01:41<+wesdiscordbot> Computers have the (essentially) zero reaction time and 100% accuracy advantage over players in an RTS. 20190419 14:02:12<+wesdiscordbot> The most important, though is 100% map view and near-infinite attention 20190419 14:02:34<+wesdiscordbot> The AI has no problem controlling a large battle and developing its base at the same time 20190419 14:02:39<+wesdiscordbot> But pattern recognition (e.g. form a defensive line along the edge of good terrain) is rather hard to teach them. 20190419 14:02:59<+wesdiscordbot> Have you seen the DeepMind SCII matches? 20190419 14:03:02<+wesdiscordbot> Well im happy that Deepmind Ai (I belive it was deepmind) was beaten by not the best player in Star Carft 2 (MaNa) even if only once. 20190419 14:03:31<+wesdiscordbot> It was dumbed down to be beaten. It was not the same AI that played the matches 20190419 14:03:39<+wesdiscordbot> I belive Nerchio would have won more than once. 20190419 14:03:44<+wesdiscordbot> I'm not saying it's impossible. Just hard. 😃 20190419 14:03:47<+wesdiscordbot> They allowed it to view only a small portion of the map at a time 20190419 14:03:54<+wesdiscordbot> Just like player. 20190419 14:04:21<+wesdiscordbot> It was the point othervise i would call it cheting in favour of ai. 20190419 14:04:40<+wesdiscordbot> ... and if the teams writing those AIs would take on Wesnoth, I'd happily retire my amateurish attempts. 😉 20190419 14:05:10<+wesdiscordbot> Not really. Even when a top player is not llking at a portion of the map, he usually has a pretty good idea of what's going on therew 20190419 14:05:34<+wesdiscordbot> AoE 2 Ai was writen by one person i belive, and the same person have corrected his ai in mod later on. 😛 20190419 14:07:02< Ravana> you mean Barbarian? 20190419 14:07:06<+wesdiscordbot> I also wonder if the AlphaZero would be able to hold against the real top players, who switched to SC1 remastered from the SCII 20190419 14:07:26<+wesdiscordbot> (AoE 2 have 2 sets of Ais Original Ai and Ai im talking all the time about Ai not original ai) 20190419 14:08:02< Ravana> there are at least 4 aoe AIs 20190419 14:08:12< Ravana> I watch AI tournament some matches 20190419 14:08:38<+wesdiscordbot> Oh you are taliknig about custom Ai created by community. 20190419 14:08:52< Ravana> yes 20190419 14:08:59<+wesdiscordbot> If seeing the entire map is cheating, than having no fatigue is also cheating 20190419 14:09:05< Ravana> barbarian is considered strongest out of thoes 20190419 14:09:57<+wesdiscordbot> Im talking about in game Ai created by Promi Im not sure if he had team. 20190419 14:10:20< Ravana> that one is good too 20190419 14:10:29< Ravana> I use that one when I play against AI 20190419 14:11:54<+wesdiscordbot> I to this day remember how hard i lost vs it just because i underestimated its potential.... 20190419 14:15:19<+wesdiscordbot> @Hejnewar If the "no team" comment is in reference to what I said, doesn't really matter if it's a team or a single person. Anybody actually knowing what they are doing what still be much better than what I can do. 20190419 14:15:51<+wesdiscordbot> And that's not meant to be self deprecating or anything, it's just a fact. 20190419 14:16:24-!- psymin [~psymin@69.146.8.222] has joined #wesnoth 20190419 14:18:38<+wesdiscordbot> Experience is the only way to become someone who knows what they're doing 20190419 14:18:48<+wesdiscordbot> but games are so different 20190419 14:19:17<+wesdiscordbot> so a person who wrote ai for one game could as well be considered amateur as far as writing ai for another game is concerned 20190419 14:22:50<+wesdiscordbot> So I wouldn't expect anyone would magically do better at making wesnoth ai.. 20190419 14:25:27<+wesdiscordbot> Sure, but at least they'd have experience writing AIs. Anyway, doesn't really matter that much to me. Mostly I just do this because I'm having fun (most of the time, in between the frustrations of yelling "Fred, why don't you get this?"). If something "useful" would eventually come out of it, so much the better, but it's not a requirement for me personally. 20190419 14:26:43<+wesdiscordbot> Nice, that's the only way to have a chance of making something that lasts 20190419 14:27:11<+wesdiscordbot> At least in games 😛 20190419 15:09:49<+wesdiscordbot> @mattsc I like the goals you've set! Keep it up man 20190419 15:10:08<+wesdiscordbot> Honestly I would love to get my ass kicked by a supersmart Wesnoth AI, that sounds like amazing fun 20190419 17:16:40<+wesdiscordbot> Would it be possible to create a feature for a campaign that tracks any savescumming done by a player? Or a feature that prevents savescumming altogether 20190419 17:17:14<+wesdiscordbot> IIRC there was some addon in 1.12 that made units die even if the save was reloaded 20190419 17:20:51<+wesdiscordbot> There is the "save random seed" option that blocks the most blatant cases of savescumming. 20190419 17:21:14<+wesdiscordbot> If you load a save and perform the exact same actions again, the result will still be the same. 20190419 17:22:16<+wesdiscordbot> I'm aware of this (and also of the way to get around it), but I was thinking of something more like "campaign breaks fourth wall to call you out on savescumming, warns you, and deletes your save files if you do it again" 20190419 17:22:29< celticminstrel> No. 20190419 17:22:36<+wesdiscordbot> It's not possible? 20190419 17:22:57< celticminstrel> It's not possible to do in any reliable manner, and deleting your save files is definitely impossible within the Wesnoth API. 20190419 17:23:03<+wesdiscordbot> Darn 20190419 17:23:30<+wesdiscordbot> Does that include the part about detecting savescumming? 20190419 17:23:34< celticminstrel> You can count how many times they load their game, but if they keep loading the same save every time, that won't give you any useful data. 20190419 17:23:56< celticminstrel> Maybe that's a poor phrasing. 20190419 17:24:03<+wesdiscordbot> Kinda sounds like you wanna shame people for savescumming 20190419 17:24:08< celticminstrel> What I mean is you can make the scenario react to a game being loaded. 20190419 17:24:19< celticminstrel> But it won't be able to tell how many times that specific save was loaded. 20190419 17:25:07<+wesdiscordbot> Right, that makes sense @rohiik It's a feature that I would implement if I were to design a campaign, as I'd be designing the campaign I would want to play and this would increase my own enjoyment of it 20190419 17:25:35<+wesdiscordbot> Also it would help with immersion 20190419 17:25:36<+wesdiscordbot> IMO 20190419 17:26:07< celticminstrel> I suggest you don't even bother trying. 20190419 17:26:30<+wesdiscordbot> Why, would it be very difficult? 20190419 17:26:37< celticminstrel> It's not a question of difficulty. 20190419 17:26:46< celticminstrel> It's more like what rohiik said. 20190419 17:27:12< celticminstrel> I don't think it's a worthwhile pursuit, and it's one that can alienate your potential playerbase. 20190419 17:27:30< celticminstrel> Similar to how a lot of the big companies have always-online DRM in their games nowadays. 20190419 17:27:32<+wesdiscordbot> I don't have an issue with people not wanting to play it tbh, as I'd be making the experience based on my own tastes 20190419 17:27:48<+wesdiscordbot> Right, and I wouldn't need to sell it or even have people play it if they didn't want to 20190419 17:28:29<+wesdiscordbot> I'm aware of this (and also of the way to get around it), but I was thinking of something more like "campaign breaks fourth wall to call you out on savescumming, warns you, and deletes your save files if you do it again" I believe that A New Order tries to do something like this (except for the 'delete saves' part). 20190419 17:28:56<+wesdiscordbot> For me it's not so much to "shame" people as to help immersion and structure the experience 20190419 17:28:58< celticminstrel> If you're only making it so you yourself can play it, then surely you won't be savescumming anyway, so it's pointless to make any effort to actively discourage it. 20190419 17:29:11<+wesdiscordbot> Yes, but I enjoy pointless things like this 20190419 17:29:33< celticminstrel> In any case, it's not possible; Lua has zero access to the saves folder. 20190419 17:29:33<+wesdiscordbot> Okay, thanks @Prime Seeker I'll look into it if I'm to start making a campaign one of these days 20190419 17:29:41< celticminstrel> It can't force a game save nor delete a save. 20190419 17:29:44<+wesdiscordbot> gotcha 20190419 17:29:51< celticminstrel> And you'd need both things in order to implement what you describe. 20190419 17:30:08< celticminstrel> You can make an effort to count how many times they load the game, but it won't be an accurate number. 20190419 17:30:11<+wesdiscordbot> well, at least it's possible to track how many times the game has been loaded 20190419 17:30:13<+wesdiscordbot> yes 20190419 17:30:26< celticminstrel> And savescumming would only count as one load no matter how many times. 20190419 17:30:29<+wesdiscordbot> It wouldn't be accurate, but it would be "something" 20190419 17:30:32<+wesdiscordbot> oh 20190419 17:30:36<+wesdiscordbot> is that how it works 20190419 17:30:48<+wesdiscordbot> well, it's still something to work with 20190419 17:30:49< celticminstrel> Like I said, you can detect the game being loaded, but that's it. 20190419 17:31:16< celticminstrel> If you wanted to detect savescumming, then in the load game handler you'd need to increment a counter and then re-save the game with the new value. 20190419 17:31:38<+wesdiscordbot> Is that impossible to do? 20190419 17:31:41< celticminstrel> So no matter how many times they load a given save, the counter will reach the same value each time. 20190419 17:31:53< celticminstrel> Like I said, Lua has no ability to do anything to the player's saves. 20190419 17:31:57<+wesdiscordbot> okay 20190419 17:32:11<+wesdiscordbot> Thanks for the help! 20190419 17:33:23< celticminstrel> It can ask the game to make an auto-save (though I think that's only at the end of a scenario), but whether it actually does should depend on the user's preferences. 20190419 17:34:04<+wesdiscordbot> I see 20190419 17:34:18< celticminstrel> So yeah you can tell how many saves were loaded to get to the current point. 20190419 17:34:24< celticminstrel> But not how many times each save was loaded. 20190419 17:34:49< celticminstrel> (It's possible I'm forgetting something that changes the end conclusion, but... probably not likely.) 20190419 17:35:08<+wesdiscordbot> 👍 20190419 17:35:30< celticminstrel> I still think it's poor form to even try, but it's not like I can stop you. 20190419 17:35:42<+wesdiscordbot> Yup 20190419 17:35:50<+wesdiscordbot> I respect your opinion 20190419 17:35:55< celticminstrel> (It's also a little able-ist TBH.) 20190419 17:36:20<+wesdiscordbot> and I respectfully disagree, but would prefer to avoid a confrontation about this 20190419 17:36:46< celticminstrel> Would probably be pointless to argue this point anyway. 20190419 17:36:55<+wesdiscordbot> Yup 20190419 17:42:56<+wesdiscordbot> (It's possible I'm forgetting something that changes the end conclusion, but... probably not likely.) I suppose that would be persistent variables? 20190419 17:43:14< celticminstrel> Hmm. 20190419 17:44:10< celticminstrel> They did briefly cross my mind for a moment, but now that you bring them up again, maybe it could work against people with no technical skills. 20190419 17:44:29< celticminstrel> Still no way to delete saves tho. 20190419 17:44:42<+wesdiscordbot> the way ANO does it is to gently break the fourth wall 20190419 17:44:48<+wesdiscordbot> ooh? 20190419 17:45:02<+wesdiscordbot> with a character saying "hmm, haven't I been in this situation before? feels like deja vu" 20190419 17:45:09<+wesdiscordbot> basically something to that effect 20190419 17:45:13<+wesdiscordbot> Ah 20190419 17:45:21<+wesdiscordbot> Sounds useful! 20190419 17:45:23<+wesdiscordbot> that's the way I would do it if I would be bothered to implement such a thing 20190419 17:45:40<+wesdiscordbot> but I would consider that in SP 20190419 17:45:46< celticminstrel> Persistent variables are stored in a separate file, so you could reset them by deleting that file. 20190419 17:45:49< celticminstrel> I think. 20190419 17:45:55<+wesdiscordbot> you shouldn't care that much about how players want to play the game, it's a game for enjoyment, not a competition 20190419 17:45:56< celticminstrel> Never actually used them tho. 20190419 17:46:00<+wesdiscordbot> if they want to cheat in SP, let htem 20190419 17:46:06< celticminstrel> Indeed. 20190419 17:46:09<+wesdiscordbot> but of course you can make them feel a bit sheepish about it 20190419 17:46:11<+wesdiscordbot> Oh, I simply think I would enjoy it more personally in that way 20190419 17:46:12<+wesdiscordbot> like ANO does 20190419 17:46:23< celticminstrel> I mean, there's also no way to force them not to use debug mode to cheat through it. 20190419 17:46:29<+wesdiscordbot> right 20190419 17:46:29<+wesdiscordbot> right 20190419 17:46:32<+wesdiscordbot> XD 20190419 17:46:53<+wesdiscordbot> But in debug mode you can also just advance the scenario tbh 20190419 17:47:02<+wesdiscordbot> ofc debug mode has the nasty thing where if you don't know how the code works 20190419 17:47:06<+wesdiscordbot> you'll probably just break the campaign 20190419 17:47:20<+wesdiscordbot> so it's a different thing than just save loading, which is much less likely to break things 20190419 17:47:23< celticminstrel> Well, it depends on what you do exactly. 20190419 17:47:48<+wesdiscordbot> yeah 20190419 17:47:57< celticminstrel> For example, force-killing a few units won't usually be a problem (unless they were important), or spawning yourself a few extra units. 20190419 17:47:59<+wesdiscordbot> one fun thing you could try is to make a point system 20190419 17:48:04<+wesdiscordbot> Debug mode aside, the user can just delete unwanted pieces from the addon code. 😛 20190419 17:48:05<+wesdiscordbot> -2,147,483,648 little bugs in the code 20190419 17:48:09<+wesdiscordbot> Yes 20190419 17:48:13<+wesdiscordbot> so if the player reloads, they get docked points 20190419 17:48:19<+wesdiscordbot> and if they play through without reloading, they get full points 20190419 17:48:36<+wesdiscordbot> and at the end of each scenario or the whole campaign, you can tally points into like a high score or something 20190419 17:49:04<+wesdiscordbot> would be nice for single scenarios or short campaigns, where the focus is on gameplay rather than story 20190419 17:49:09<+wesdiscordbot> I could see that being workable for single short scenarios but not a whole campaign tbh, because then you could even reload from a whole scenario earlier 20190419 17:49:10<+wesdiscordbot> yes 20190419 17:49:24<+wesdiscordbot> It is an interesting idea though! 20190419 17:49:32<+wesdiscordbot> reloading from a scenario is fine with me though because 20190419 17:49:45<+wesdiscordbot> say you have a hard scenario, reloading from the start of scenario isn't going to help you get through it any easier 20190419 17:49:58<+wesdiscordbot> except in the case where you've thought of a better strategy 20190419 17:50:10<+wesdiscordbot> but you have no guarantee the RNG will be better 20190419 17:50:12<+wesdiscordbot> Right, and then you touch on problems like whether or not shroud/fog are beneficial for this sort of one-chance gameplay 20190419 17:50:28<+wesdiscordbot> sure, so you'd have to think about designing that kind of point system carefully 20190419 17:50:34<+wesdiscordbot> Yes. 20190419 17:50:57<+wesdiscordbot> This reminds me that there are some single-player games (at least Hitman series comes to mind) where the number of available save slots depends on the difficulty level you choose. 20190419 17:50:57<+wesdiscordbot> but with some scenarios, fog/shroud don't really matter for the difficulty 20190419 17:51:10<+wesdiscordbot> I have one in my campaign where you defend a city, for example 20190419 17:51:10<+wesdiscordbot> At maximum difficulty there are no mid-mission saves at all. 20190419 17:51:21<+wesdiscordbot> Fog and shroud do prevent you from knowing and being able to read the map the first time around 20190419 17:51:22<+wesdiscordbot> and even with fog, you know where enemies will come from and where to defend 20190419 17:51:35<+wesdiscordbot> which imo is an important part of the experience of playing through a campaign for the first time 20190419 17:51:39<+wesdiscordbot> sure 20190419 17:51:49<+wesdiscordbot> so in my scenario, the fog doesn't prevent reading the map, you know what'll happen 20190419 17:51:53<+wesdiscordbot> but in others it might 20190419 17:51:56<+wesdiscordbot> so it's a matter of design 20190419 17:53:03<+wesdiscordbot> What is your scenario called? I may look into it and see how you accomplished it 20190419 17:53:21<+wesdiscordbot> well it's far along in the campaign, but you could look at a bunch of them 20190419 17:53:27<+wesdiscordbot> Sure 20190419 17:53:30<+wesdiscordbot> campaign is Genesis, the one I'm referring to is S16, Black Fire 20190419 17:53:32<+wesdiscordbot> wait 20190419 17:53:33<+wesdiscordbot> hmm 20190419 17:53:39<+wesdiscordbot> S18 20190419 17:53:43<+wesdiscordbot> Okay 20190419 17:53:54<+wesdiscordbot> I may get back to you on that one someday 20190419 17:54:15<+wesdiscordbot> sure, just something you could look at in terms of designing scenarios is all 20190419 17:54:26<+wesdiscordbot> Yup, thanks for the help 20190419 17:54:34<+wesdiscordbot> I think it's probably the most deterministic/least tomatoey of my scenarios 20190419 17:54:45<+wesdiscordbot> 😄 20190419 17:54:47<+wesdiscordbot> well, one of them anyway 20190419 17:54:56<+wesdiscordbot> the others are filled with tomatoes, so you might not want to look at those :p 20190419 17:55:00<+wesdiscordbot> lol 20190419 18:00:11< Ravana> modification that adds counter on number of saves and loads done (and streaks of loads without saves between) could be done 20190419 18:00:25<+wesdiscordbot> Nice! 20190419 18:00:36< Ravana> but that would work just for informing, not for reliable info to use for gamechanging decisions 20190419 18:00:41< Ravana> otherwise people just wouldn't use it 20190419 18:03:36-!- Narrat [~Narrat@p2E511F0E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20190419 18:11:35-!- Narrat [~Narrat@p2E511F0E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20190419 18:14:54-!- Narrat [~Narrat@p2E511F0E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20190419 18:19:59-!- Narrat [~Narrat@p2E511F0E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20190419 18:25:11-!- Narrat [~Narrat@p2E511F0E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Excess Flood] 20190419 18:25:36-!- Narrat [~Narrat@p2E511F0E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20190419 19:11:29-!- Narrat [~Narrat@p2E511F0E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 20190419 19:11:44-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87.static.drei.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20190419 19:11:56-!- Narrat [~Narrat@p2E511F0E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20190419 19:21:31-!- Narrat [~Narrat@p2E511F0E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20190419 19:22:55-!- Narrat [~Narrat@p2E511F0E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20190419 19:39:10-!- Narrat [~Narrat@p2E511F0E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20190419 19:44:37-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87.static.drei.at] has joined #wesnoth 20190419 19:53:25<+wesdiscordbot> hello again 20190419 20:00:02<+wesdiscordbot> hi 20190419 20:07:11-!- Narrat [~Narrat@p2E511F0E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20190419 20:08:27<+wesdiscordbot> @Hardwood I think there is a way to make each turn into turn 1, which would automatically overwrite the last 'turn 1' savefile. 20190419 20:09:31< Ravana> it is possible to make wesnoth create invalid save files 20190419 20:11:34-!- Crebiz [~Narrat@p2E511AF9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20190419 20:12:32-!- Narrat [~Narrat@p2E511F0E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20190419 21:06:18-!- sevu [~sevu@p5B28FA31.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20190419 21:20:31-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 20190419 21:46:00< celticminstrel> That might be true but it won't affect any explicitly-made saves. 20190419 21:46:33< celticminstrel> And anything that can cause wesnoth to create invalid save files would be a bug, which will probably be fixed later. 20190419 22:06:23<+wesdiscordbot> @Konrad2 Thank you, I'll keep note of this. I found this addon for 1.12 earlier when I was looking around to see if it had already been done - https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?t=41685 20190419 22:06:47<+wesdiscordbot> Is Dugi somewhere around in here? 20190419 22:07:05<+wesdiscordbot> Perhaps it would be possible to implement this in 1.14 as well 20190419 22:07:43< celticminstrel> Ugh... 20190419 22:08:13<+wesdiscordbot> ? 20190419 22:10:04<+wesdiscordbot> wdym 20190419 22:10:08-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87.static.drei.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20190419 22:59:02-!- sevu [~sevu@p5B28FA31.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20190419 23:13:14-!- psymin [~psymin@69.146.8.222] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20190419 23:13:27-!- sevu [~sevu@p5B28FA31.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #wesnoth 20190419 23:15:28<+wesdiscordbot> @Hardwood - Idk if anyone has suggested this already, but the easiest way to do what you are intending (which is to stop save-scumming) is to make your campaign dependent on the no-randonmess add-on. 20190419 23:15:50<+wesdiscordbot> I believe at one point someone wrote an add-on that even when you reload the odds don't change and the reload will act exactly the same way. 20190419 23:16:04<+wesdiscordbot> If you force players to use that add-on by adding dependency and checking it is enabled 20190419 23:16:08<+wesdiscordbot> What does the no-randomness addon do? 20190419 23:16:08<+wesdiscordbot> That could work 20190419 23:16:40<+wesdiscordbot> I don't know exactly because I never used it, but I believe it makes it so that even when you re-load the random variables have already been created and stored 20190419 23:16:45<+wesdiscordbot> So the randomness doesn't change 20190419 23:16:54<+wesdiscordbot> You would always hit 1-4 times 20190419 23:17:05<+wesdiscordbot> Oh, is that the PRNG? 20190419 23:17:11<+wesdiscordbot> I'm not a fan of it personally 20190419 23:17:33<+wesdiscordbot> Maybe it is xD 20190419 23:17:41<+wesdiscordbot> :p 20190419 23:18:00<+wesdiscordbot> What don't you like about it? 20190419 23:18:19<+wesdiscordbot> I'm not sure if we're talking about the same thing, so let's clarify a bit 20190419 23:19:01<+wesdiscordbot> the experimental PRNG option is supposed to make the % of hits dictate exactly how many strikes in an attack will land, I think? 20190419 23:19:10<+wesdiscordbot> Just the distribution of those hits within the attack is varied 20190419 23:19:35<+wesdiscordbot> No not that one 20190419 23:19:36<+wesdiscordbot> and when it's not an exact number like 50% for 3 strikes, it will roll 20190419 23:19:37<+wesdiscordbot> ah 20190419 23:19:47<+wesdiscordbot> then what addon do you mean? 20190419 23:19:48<+wesdiscordbot> I was talking about one that actually affects loading games 20190419 23:20:13<+wesdiscordbot> I believe at one point someone wrote an add-on that even when you reload the odds don't change and the reload will act exactly the same way. You still can change your positioning, for example. 😃 20190419 23:20:23<+wesdiscordbot> ah, it's the deterministic mode, then, isn't it? 20190419 23:20:25<+wesdiscordbot> Yes but that is different than save-scumming 20190419 23:20:35<+wesdiscordbot> @Hardwood - Yes that sounds familiar 20190419 23:20:37<+wesdiscordbot> I don't think that's a good solution for savescumming tbh 20190419 23:20:44<+wesdiscordbot> What about Dugi's Unforgiving Hardcore Mod 20190419 23:20:52<+wesdiscordbot> I suppose The_Gnat refers to "Deterministic Offense". 20190419 23:20:53<+wesdiscordbot> Because you can still perform the action and already know what it would do 20190419 23:20:57<+wesdiscordbot> and just not do it after 20190419 23:21:03<+wesdiscordbot> Ah yes true, 20190419 23:21:23<+wesdiscordbot> Dugi's mod sounds very nice actually 20190419 23:21:48<+wesdiscordbot> I don't know how it works exactly but I am a fan of Dugi's work so I would suppose it is good xD 20190419 23:22:24<+wesdiscordbot> I hope it could be ported over to 1.14! 20190419 23:22:37<+wesdiscordbot> Dugi's addon is in 1.14 20190419 23:22:56<+wesdiscordbot> Is it? I'll have to search for it again 20190419 23:23:09<+wesdiscordbot> oh it is, nice! 20190419 23:23:13<+wesdiscordbot> thank you lol 20190419 23:23:19<+wesdiscordbot> No problem! 20190419 23:23:29<+wesdiscordbot> Now all you need is to find how to check what modifications are active 20190419 23:23:57<+wesdiscordbot> Yes, and start working on that campaign as well (eventually...) 20190419 23:24:04<+wesdiscordbot> I will do it at some point though! 20190419 23:24:08<+wesdiscordbot> In this world or the next 20190419 23:28:25<+wesdiscordbot> Haha good luck 20190419 23:28:27<+wesdiscordbot> xD 20190419 23:28:32<+wesdiscordbot> 😄 20190419 23:28:42<+wesdiscordbot> need some good rolls on the real life RNG --- Log closed Sat Apr 20 00:00:37 2019