--- Log opened Fri May 03 00:00:43 2019 20190503 03:30:18-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has quit [Quit: And lo! The computer falls into a deep sleep, to awake again some other day!] 20190503 04:42:48<+wesdiscordbot> TBH, loyal is OP. You pay no upkeep, and mostly you get the unit for free too. But as for why it get's always two traits… Unit types have a number of traits they can get. If you give the unit a trait at creation time, there are just less ones to be given out randomly. 20190503 04:46:46<+wesdiscordbot> Command mode can only be used for changing simple things – in short, everything which is within another WML Tag can't be changed with it. With the Lua Console one writes Lua code the way one writes scenarios… 20190503 04:48:36<+wesdiscordbot> For what you want, the quickest is to either edit the scenario file where you got the unit. To have changes in effect, the scenario in question must be started from the beginning (but not the whole campaign) 20190503 04:48:50<+wesdiscordbot> Or you edit the savefile 20190503 04:53:58<+wesdiscordbot> It's not a matter of whether 'loyal' is overall a cost effective trait- it's enormously effective, especially on units that have been raised to a high level. It's a storytelling issue. You get these units for free during the story, and they serve you faithfully without pay, but then you can go and recruit more units of the same type, and because they're not weighed down by being loyal, those units have 20190503 04:53:58<+wesdiscordbot> slightly better statistics. It's like the game mechanics are saying 'only the crappier versions of these units are willing to pledge their loyalty to you'. 20190503 04:55:04<+wesdiscordbot> If loyal was a randomly given trait it would be completely different. It's very good in that situation. But when the story gives you loyal units, it feels weird that they miss out on other traits because of their loyalty to you. 20190503 04:56:45<+wesdiscordbot> Trie… I guess wesnoth would be better without loyal traits at all, because then it's more like MP, and you're not tempted to saveload 20190503 04:57:11<+wesdiscordbot> MP? 20190503 04:57:17<+wesdiscordbot> no because economy in some campaigns (see mine) is quite a big issue 20190503 04:57:23<+wesdiscordbot> so you'll find that loyal is still quite useful 20190503 04:57:30<+wesdiscordbot> in terms of gameplay balance 20190503 04:57:31<+wesdiscordbot> Multiplayer, where unit prices matter 20190503 04:59:07<+wesdiscordbot> from a storytelling point of view, it doesn't make sense in some cases 20190503 04:59:16<+wesdiscordbot> but, gameplay doesn't match storytelling 100% 20190503 04:59:42<+wesdiscordbot> What I'm a bit unhappy is that it very much depends how good you have been doing at the last scenarios, not wether you beat them. And you just pay 20g recall cost, for units which are worthy way more. 20190503 05:00:23<+wesdiscordbot> yes, so for your typical campaign, the mainline design philosophy tends to be you should be able to beat each scenario with the minimum amount of gold 20190503 05:01:11<+wesdiscordbot> yes, so for your typical campaign, the mainline design philosophy tends to be you should be able to beat each scenario with the minimum amount of gold 20190503 05:01:14<+wesdiscordbot> but for harder campaigns, such as what I did for mine, how well you do in early scenarios matters 20190503 05:01:33<+wesdiscordbot> it can definitely be part of the difficulty of a campaign 20190503 05:01:41<+wesdiscordbot> requiring you to consider carryover and unit experience between scenarios 20190503 05:02:15<+wesdiscordbot> mainline does not do this that much, which is why its SP tends to be relatively easy 20190503 05:02:34<+wesdiscordbot> except for in cases like NR and such 20190503 05:02:52<+wesdiscordbot> it becomes hard if you have an all-in fight which you barely win at some point 20190503 05:03:03<+wesdiscordbot> the part which I don't like 20190503 05:03:14<+wesdiscordbot> yes, that's why the campaign can't be designed without careful thought 20190503 05:03:26<+wesdiscordbot> there's going to be some scenarios which will be all-in fights, so subsequent to those 20190503 05:03:33<+wesdiscordbot> then the campaign designer should expect the player to start with minimum gold 20190503 05:04:52<+wesdiscordbot> Or you are just a bad player and lose half the units 20190503 05:05:10<+wesdiscordbot> You won, but you have a problem now 20190503 05:05:13<+wesdiscordbot> in which case the difficulty is too high and you should play on a lower difficulty 20190503 05:05:33<+wesdiscordbot> having a hard mode as a challenge for better players in SP is not a bad thing 20190503 05:06:10<+wesdiscordbot> it's definitely a good thing to have a hard mode 20190503 05:06:14<+wesdiscordbot> we don't need to cater every single thing to newer/inexperienced players, they can play on easy or medium for the storyline and easier gameplay, but we can reserve some hard mode expert campaigns for strong players 20190503 05:06:27<+wesdiscordbot> obviously having no easier mode is bad too 20190503 05:07:52<+wesdiscordbot> What I wonder is… if the recall cost would be the prices of the unit itself, or close to it, would it work better? 20190503 05:09:31<+wesdiscordbot> MP and campaigns would be more similar, and the L2,3,4 prices would become less arbitary as an side effect. 20190503 05:09:55<+wesdiscordbot> if someone feels like taking the time to rebalance all of it, sure 20190503 05:10:30<+wesdiscordbot> I thought about it with haldric in mind 20190503 05:10:48<+wesdiscordbot> it might be good to put that in an issue 🤔 20190503 05:11:14<+wesdiscordbot> however for haldric we should also consider that there'll be considerably more RPG elements in campaigns rather than just linear unit advancements 20190503 05:11:27<+wesdiscordbot> so that would be hard to account for 20190503 05:14:22<+wesdiscordbot> Maybe I'll open an issue about it somewday 20190503 05:15:01<+wesdiscordbot> Not sure how to value a unit … but the current alternative is to have a static price 20190503 05:17:40<+wesdiscordbot> btw, issue count is still at 900 😃 20190503 05:18:31<+wesdiscordbot> I guess, but I'm only equipped to handle some of the issues with the campaign and prose tags 20190503 05:18:59<+wesdiscordbot> so there's basically only 3-4 left that I could deal with, the rest is up to everyone else lol 20190503 05:19:13<+wesdiscordbot> and of the 3-4 left, looks like you're assigned to some of them 😝 20190503 05:20:37<+wesdiscordbot> Seems so … my list to look at in summer 20190503 05:21:28<+wesdiscordbot> But it also didn't increase 20190503 05:21:44<+wesdiscordbot> closes as much as opened 20190503 05:22:04<+wesdiscordbot> I think the other way doesn't work :p 20190503 05:22:49<+wesdiscordbot> I'm looking mostly at the campaign tag right now, goal is to get it down to 1 20190503 05:23:09<+wesdiscordbot> (the add MP campaign, which is just a big ? for the time being) 20190503 05:23:59<+wesdiscordbot> 4 of the prose ones involve c++ stuff, which I don't feel like getting visual studio to build to test my code 20190503 05:24:03<+wesdiscordbot> so that's meh for me 20190503 05:24:31<+wesdiscordbot> and looks like ANL ones are yours and tutorial one is josteph's 20190503 05:24:34<+wesdiscordbot> so 🤷 20190503 05:27:32<+wesdiscordbot> ANL one is a backport from the add-on, though I saw one OOS error where I'm not sure if it's caused by me having modifed things, or if there's OOS… need to play a test game in MP 20190503 05:27:55<+wesdiscordbot> Tutorial… that's one event I need to add 20190503 05:28:51<+wesdiscordbot> Big thing is the translation ^^ 20190503 05:42:41<+wesdiscordbot> @sevu It's not a thing I've had a problem with or thought about, but if you're going to open up the issue of recall costs, I'd ask a general question of what's the point of recalls in the first place? 20190503 05:43:04<+wesdiscordbot> Like, progressing units over a long period of time and a player sense of story coherence is probably one. 20190503 05:44:34<+wesdiscordbot> I guess the reason you need a recall cost is to balance maps for minimum starting conditions- if recalled units were free and you just had to pick up paying upkeep, then the difference between doing well and doing poorly in earlier missions would be much much bigger. 20190503 05:49:19<+wesdiscordbot> I haven't paid any attention to higher level unit costs, but I feel like they ought to scale mathematically from intial cost, maybe with a modifier based on experience requirements. 20190503 05:50:22<+wesdiscordbot> Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I can't think of any reason why recalls should have a flat cost. 20190503 05:53:29<+wesdiscordbot> It heavily incentivizes recalling highest level loyal units over everything else, because if you get too many high levels you can kill yourself on upkeep otherwise. Having recall costs scale would make continuing to recruit throughout the campaign much more appealing, and would make gold carryover more about being able to recall your heavy hitters. 20190503 06:09:39<+wesdiscordbot> @sevu How do I edit a save file? 20190503 06:30:03<+wesdiscordbot> Okay, I tried digging up the saves and decompressing them and opening them in notepad++ and then I cut and pasted the trait I wanted from another unit and then saved the file and recompressed it in the gzip format and now I've opened it in BfW and... I guess it worked? 20190503 06:30:16<+wesdiscordbot> Nothing's crashed yet, and the unit has the trait I wanted it to have. 20190503 06:32:13<+wesdiscordbot> Wait, no, damn it didn't work. 20190503 06:33:01<+wesdiscordbot> The unit has the new trait displayed instead of the one I pasted over, but its stats haven't been recalculated to reflect the new trait. 20190503 06:38:19<+wesdiscordbot> Looking at the save file again, it seems like I could just modify the relevant stats directly, but I don't know if that would fix the way the game sees the character. Are trait effects only apply upon unit creation and advancement or something? 20190503 06:53:04<+wesdiscordbot> It's probably easier to edit units in command mode. 20190503 06:53:05<+wesdiscordbot> https://wiki.wesnoth.org/CommandMode 20190503 06:57:07<+wesdiscordbot> Looking at [effect] documentation, it looks like some traits are applied only when the unit is created, and others are applied on every level-up. 20190503 07:13:00<+wesdiscordbot> I tried doing that first, if you read back. Editing traits in command mode may be possible and it may not, but regardless it's neither straightforward nor documented. 20190503 07:16:48<+wesdiscordbot> I think the point was that even if you did add a trait to a unit, it wouldn't be applied until at best the unit leveled up. 20190503 07:18:45<+wesdiscordbot> More accurately, my point was that editing attributes (= what traits usually do, anyway) is easier in command mode than by editing save files. 20190503 07:27:58<+wesdiscordbot> Ah, yeah, that makes sense. The attribute editing was pretty clearly laid out on the wiki. 20190503 08:22:11< vn971> @Karma Chimera Lua "debug" console is for add-on developers mostly, you can do anything that an add-on can do from here. (Some of the things are card to code though, like requiring multiple lines of correct code.) 20190503 08:23:21< vn971> Karma Chimer: if you however want to just touch a unit and change its properties to have more interesting playing rules, consider finding some add-on that does it or the "CommandMode" mentioned above.. 20190503 08:23:40< vn971> I mean if it's for you only, just a playing experience. 20190503 12:51:54-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20190503 12:58:36-!- celticminstrel is now known as celmin|away 20190503 14:10:06-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth-umc-dev 20190503 19:50:31<+wesdiscordbot> @sevu About the recall costs thing, a quick and dirty mod to test the idea could just make recall cost scale flatly with level- 10g for Lvl 0, 20 for Lvl 1, 30 for Lvl 2, 40 for Lvl 3, and so on. 20190503 22:46:38-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20190503 23:50:23-!- celmin|away is now known as celticminstrel --- Log closed Sat May 04 00:00:45 2019