--- Log opened Sat May 04 00:00:45 2019 20190504 01:25:01<+wesdiscordbot> Hey, weird question, if a keep is placed with no castle around it, can it still recruit? 20190504 01:26:34<+wesdiscordbot> It seems like it can't, because amount of castle space seems to determine recruiting limit, but it feels weird that a keep placed on its own has no function and no value... except for defense, I guess? 20190504 01:27:37<+wesdiscordbot> Why the heck don't keeps heal units? It feels really weird that AI leaders abandon their keeps as soon as you close in on them, and the AI valuing a village for healing over the keep's defense seems to be part of that. 20190504 01:29:47<+wesdiscordbot> I just feel like fortresses should feel more fortress-y, and right now they don't, really. 20190504 01:42:39<+wesdiscordbot> To force your leader to move to a village or next to a healer to get healing (if there isn't a healer nearby) 20190504 01:43:01<+wesdiscordbot> Otherwise they could just squat on the keep forever recruiting units even under dire circumstances 20190504 01:43:23<+wesdiscordbot> I mean, isn't that exactly what they should be doing? 20190504 01:43:57<+wesdiscordbot> We're talking under the assumption that they are under siege 20190504 01:44:39<+wesdiscordbot> Yeah, and walking out of the castle while it's under siege to visit the house next door for some fresh poultices seems really odd. 20190504 01:44:57<+wesdiscordbot> It's a risk you have to take 20190504 01:45:42<+wesdiscordbot> Is healing capped at 10 per turn? It feels capped, but the game moves so fast it's often hard to tell. 20190504 01:46:29<+wesdiscordbot> Villages, regen, and heals+8 heal up to 8 HP and heals+4 heals up to 4 HP, and you may get additional 2 HP from resting during a turn 20190504 01:46:40<+wesdiscordbot> Custom abilities or terrains may heal more than 8 HP 20190504 01:47:41<+wesdiscordbot> So, healing isn't directly capped, but the game checks for the presence of village, regen, and healing, and only applies one of those effects? 20190504 01:48:04<+wesdiscordbot> And I assume the Dwarven 'healthy' trait conflicts with resting? 20190504 01:48:30<+wesdiscordbot> It does 20190504 01:48:46<+wesdiscordbot> Well, I should say yes, and it does 20190504 01:49:13<+wesdiscordbot> Healthy is basically perma-resting 20190504 01:49:27<+wesdiscordbot> How is that applied? While save editing I saw a 'resting' attribute on a unit, but it wasn't clear if it referred to the current turn or the need to rest itself. 20190504 01:50:16<+wesdiscordbot> I'll say that the resting attribute is not an accurate mechanism to track units' resting status 20190504 01:50:19<+wesdiscordbot> When a unit doesn’t do anything for a turn, it counts as resting on the next turn 20190504 01:51:07<+wesdiscordbot> I can see why you'd want to limit heal stacking- like, four lvl 2 healers boosting a unit would get ridiculous and could be made to hold bottlenecks indefinitely- but I feel like there's a place for total healing that's a little higher. 20190504 01:51:21<+wesdiscordbot> Wonder if the healthy trait uses its own code or just forces resting? 🤔 20190504 01:51:55<+wesdiscordbot> Healing did stack in version 1.0 IIRC 20190504 01:52:52<+wesdiscordbot> The current definition of most abilities and weapon specials dates back to 2006 though and most stats are written around them so you can bet they're not gonna change any time soon :p 20190504 01:53:38<+wesdiscordbot> The first option that comes to mind is to separate the healer ability from village healing, and allow them both to be applied. Whether regeneration counted as one or the other would depend on whether you wanted trolls to be able to be boosted by healers or by villages. Personally, I think letting healers actively heal trolls on top of regen makes more sense, and their regeneration representing them just not needing the 20190504 01:53:38<+wesdiscordbot> comforts of a home. 20190504 01:55:08<+wesdiscordbot> But I think it makes sense that if a unit is sheltering in a dwelling and has a healer actively working them over, they'll recover a lot faster. 20190504 02:07:27<+wesdiscordbot> The crap? Mermaid Priestesses only get a four hitpoint boost over initiates? That's like, half of what most Lvl2 units get over their Lvl1 predecessors. 20190504 02:09:18<+wesdiscordbot> Comparing it to other units, it's less than half. Maybe a third. 20190504 02:10:34<+wesdiscordbot> I thought maybe it was a Merfolk or Mermaid thing, but all the other Merfolk units scale relatively similarly to land units. 20190504 02:12:58<+wesdiscordbot> An increase of about 40% seems to be the baseline. Mermaid Enchantress is getting 15%. 20190504 02:22:19<+wesdiscordbot> The base hitpoints for Mermaid Priestesses is the same as a Mermaid Initiate with resilient. A quick Mermaid Priestess has fewer hitpoints than a Mermaid Initiate with resilient. 20190504 02:22:42<+wesdiscordbot> This is... this has got to be an error, right? 20190504 02:23:05<+wesdiscordbot> This is completely inconsistent with the scaling on all the other units I can see the stats for. 20190504 02:48:53<+wesdiscordbot> So, I'm entirely new to modding the game, but if I just edit "C:\Program Files (x86)\Battle for Wesnoth 1.14.7\data\core\units\merfolk\Priestess.cfg", then restart the game and load the autosave from the beginning of the turn, will that fix this? 20190504 02:52:28< celticminstrel> Probably not, changes to unit types are generally not applied until a unit levels up or otherwise gets "rebuilt". 20190504 02:52:42< celticminstrel> You could probably force it by hovering over the unit and using the debug command :unit advances=0 20190504 02:52:49< celticminstrel> Not sure if I've tried that tho 20190504 02:53:18< celticminstrel> As for whether it's an error, who knows! Maybe report it somewhere more permanent (GitHub or the forums) and see what people think. 20190504 02:53:32<+wesdiscordbot> Well that's why I specified restarting from the beginning of the turn. Sorry, I should have added that the instance of the unit I have just leveled up. 20190504 02:53:55< celticminstrel> Also just FTR, while a single lone keep is indeed useless for recruiting, you could place two adjacent keeps with no surrounding castle and successfully recruit from it. 20190504 02:54:20<+wesdiscordbot> That is fascinating. 20190504 02:54:32< celticminstrel> I think your change would apply to any newly-recruited or newly-levelled units. 20190504 02:54:49< celticminstrel> Might need to force-refresh as well (press F5 while at title screen), but might not. 20190504 02:55:10< celticminstrel> (The force-refresh does allow you do do such things without quitting the game tho) 20190504 02:55:14<+wesdiscordbot> As for the Mermaid Priestess stats, who's the friggin' authority on this? I keep hearing people constantly telling me how much work went into balancing everything and that that means changes rarely happen anymore, which suggest somebody with authority is declaring things good the way they are. 20190504 02:55:15< celticminstrel> ^to do 20190504 02:55:15<+wesdiscordbot> refreshing the cache puts your changes into effect 20190504 02:55:29<+wesdiscordbot> any currently existing instances are not affected 20190504 02:55:39<+wesdiscordbot> we don't have an authority 20190504 02:55:47< celticminstrel> A whole lot of work was put into balancing the multiplayer factions. 20190504 02:55:57< celticminstrel> But the mermaid line doesn't appear in any of the multiplayer factions. 20190504 02:56:05< celticminstrel> So it's quite possible it was simply missed. 20190504 02:56:15<+wesdiscordbot> I don't care about the opinion of random forum readers. I want the opinion of someone who can say 'yep, that's fucked, needs fixing.' Not as like, an idle opinion, but as a statement of objective fact. 20190504 02:56:39< celticminstrel> I think some work has also gone into balancing specific campaigns, too. 20190504 02:56:51<+wesdiscordbot> Doing everything by general consensus is like... nothing gets done. 20190504 02:56:57< celticminstrel> Well, like Yumi said, there's no single authority. 20190504 02:57:03<+wesdiscordbot> At least, not in my experience. 20190504 02:57:06< celticminstrel> So posting to the forums or GitHub really is probably the best bet. 20190504 02:57:11<+wesdiscordbot> mermaid priestess is a bit low on hp 20190504 02:57:41<+wesdiscordbot> Is there a design document that defines how units are supposed to scale? 20190504 02:57:49< celticminstrel> Nope. 20190504 02:58:00< celticminstrel> (Or if there is I was never told.) 20190504 02:58:15<+wesdiscordbot> Because the 40% thing is me doing numbers in my head while reading over lots of unit stats in the game and also now on the website. 20190504 02:58:15< celticminstrel> I suppose the RIPLIB rule might count as part of that tho 20190504 02:58:16<+wesdiscordbot> I'd say 20190504 02:58:20<+wesdiscordbot> I would give her 34 hp 20190504 02:58:26<+wesdiscordbot> and diviner 43 20190504 02:58:49< celticminstrel> Anyway, the people who can change these things are largely those with red names on the forum. 20190504 02:59:01<+wesdiscordbot> That still seems kinda low compared to other units. Also, her art is wearing armor. 20190504 02:59:11< celticminstrel> The portrait or sprite art? 20190504 02:59:25<+wesdiscordbot> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/231976805987385345/574067523520036879/core24images24units24merfolk24priestess.png 20190504 02:59:31<+wesdiscordbot> armor in the lore typically refers to the unit's resistances 20190504 02:59:42<+wesdiscordbot> see fencer and assassins and such 20190504 02:59:49<+wesdiscordbot> it's not that low 20190504 02:59:50<+wesdiscordbot> druid has 36 20190504 02:59:58<+wesdiscordbot> shyde 46 20190504 03:00:06< celticminstrel> 46 is higher BTW ;p 20190504 03:00:08<+wesdiscordbot> and priestess/diviner have better attacks 20190504 03:00:20< celticminstrel> Oh wait both are 20190504 03:00:22< celticminstrel> <_< 20190504 03:00:25<+wesdiscordbot> yeah 20190504 03:00:31<+wesdiscordbot> 31 for priestess is a touch low 20190504 03:00:38<+wesdiscordbot> so I want to say 34 20190504 03:01:00< celticminstrel> So while we're on the topic, what about the enchantress? 20190504 03:01:02<+wesdiscordbot> you get a 7 hp improvement over the base 20190504 03:01:07<+wesdiscordbot> enchantress 38 20190504 03:01:14<+wesdiscordbot> siren 49 20190504 03:01:17< celticminstrel> Not stating any opinion, just wondering if it too is low. 20190504 03:01:18<+wesdiscordbot> it's reasonable for them to have more hp 20190504 03:01:21<+wesdiscordbot> and it's not low 20190504 03:01:47< celticminstrel> Because if one branch has a problem it's not unlikely the other branch does too. 20190504 03:02:31<+wesdiscordbot> That's another design decision I'm still parsing- healers branch classes seem to consistently have lower hitpoints than their offensive counterparts. 20190504 03:02:40<+wesdiscordbot> of course they do 20190504 03:02:42<+wesdiscordbot> o_o 20190504 03:04:39<+wesdiscordbot> I dunno, my mental archetype is of a vital and toughened frontline medic versus a cloistered glass cannon, at least on the magical unit trees. I'm not saying it's bad, it's just something I'm still parsing. It's not been intuitive to me. 20190504 03:06:17<+wesdiscordbot> you can have a lore archetype, but if it doesn't translate well to gameplay, it still won't work 20190504 03:06:28<+wesdiscordbot> healers can't have such high hp, otherwise they'd be completely overpowered 20190504 03:06:34<+wesdiscordbot> they're strong enough as is 20190504 03:07:48<+wesdiscordbot> Red Mage doesn't look tougher than a White Mage but gets a whopping 75% hitpoint boost versus White Mage's 45%. 20190504 03:08:57<+wesdiscordbot> Why is a healer with high hp inherently overpowered? They don't heal themselves, and they often have crap offense. 20190504 03:09:18<+wesdiscordbot> Like, I'm sincerely asking. 20190504 03:09:41<+wesdiscordbot> Because it draws out battles by six or seven turns 20190504 03:10:00<+wesdiscordbot> If the healer has support units 20190504 03:11:28<+wesdiscordbot> What, you're saying healers healing each other is the problem? In SP I just make a point to focus attack one unit after another when healing is in play. I don't really expect damage from a given turn to carry over to the next. 20190504 03:11:45<+wesdiscordbot> healers healing each other and their proximity to the front 20190504 03:11:57<+wesdiscordbot> suppose you stick your healer directly behind a wall of units 20190504 03:12:06<+wesdiscordbot> No, I mean the healer having more health means it takes longer to kill them 20190504 03:12:08<+wesdiscordbot> a strong enemy (even in SP) can punch through that wall at least in one place and attack your healer 20190504 03:12:25<+wesdiscordbot> that puts your healer under threat and forces them to retreat or for you to sacrifice 20190504 03:12:27<+wesdiscordbot> Longer to kill them means they have a longer time to heal allies 20190504 03:12:48<+wesdiscordbot> if you have a high hp healer, suddenly they're no longer under such threat and they just stand there, allowing you to maintain a front forever without repercussion 20190504 03:12:59<+wesdiscordbot> assassination tactics also become less valid 20190504 03:13:15<+wesdiscordbot> and then they sit there and provide you with many hundreds of HP over several turns 20190504 03:13:27<+wesdiscordbot> What I'm hearing is that there's room for an expansion of healing mechanics. 20190504 03:13:41<+wesdiscordbot> Like, for example, healers that only heal if they did not engage in combat. 20190504 03:13:46<+wesdiscordbot> sure 20190504 03:14:55<+wesdiscordbot> Are there any units with cure but not heal? I haven't seen any. 20190504 03:16:06<+wesdiscordbot> I feel like a faction that had cheap curing but regular or more expensive healing could have an interesting dynamc versus poison-focused groups. 20190504 03:17:02<+wesdiscordbot> The dwarvish annalist from The Hammer of Thursagan can cure poison at L2 but not heal 20190504 03:18:24<+wesdiscordbot> That actually fits with Dwarves' innate healing trait. Curing becomes more critical than healing in that case. 20190504 03:18:39<+wesdiscordbot> to your point for the mermaids 20190504 03:18:43<+wesdiscordbot> if you think 34/43 is reasonable 20190504 03:18:48<+wesdiscordbot> I'm going to go ahead and put in a PR 20190504 03:18:49<+wesdiscordbot> I feel like, say, a goblin alchemist that cures but doesn't heal would be neat. 20190504 03:19:42< celticminstrel> Cure without heal has been done but I don't think there's anything in core. Maybe the new dunefolk? (But that's for 1.15.0 I think.) 20190504 03:19:53<+wesdiscordbot> I mean, personally I'd beef her up, because she's armored and the enchantress isn't, but you're saying armor is supposed to be represented by resistances, so I'm not sure how best to hand that. 20190504 03:20:45<+wesdiscordbot> To me, this: 20190504 03:20:45<+wesdiscordbot> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/231976805987385345/574072897690140683/core24images24units24merfolk24priestess.png 20190504 03:20:59<+wesdiscordbot> Looks tougher than this: 20190504 03:21:00<+wesdiscordbot> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/231976805987385345/574072951771627520/core24images24units24merfolk24enchantress.png 20190504 03:21:45<+wesdiscordbot> And Enchantress gets a stock standard 40% boost. 20190504 03:21:49< celticminstrel> Well, HP isn't the only representation of toughness tho 20190504 03:22:59<+wesdiscordbot> So what, give Priestess 10-20% resistance to Pierce and Blade? 20190504 03:23:26<+wesdiscordbot> Also, as an aside, it's weird that fire attacks versus units in the water aren't weakened at all. 20190504 03:23:39<+wesdiscordbot> I dunno what to do about that, but there it is. 20190504 03:23:44<+wesdiscordbot> healing units are important 20190504 03:23:51<+wesdiscordbot> I have 4 ish 20190504 03:24:06<+wesdiscordbot> and I deploy them as fast as possible 20190504 03:24:40<+wesdiscordbot> they are particularly useful against undead 20190504 03:26:44<+wesdiscordbot> well anyway, if you think what I said is reasonable, or you have another concrete value you'd like, you can ping me 20190504 03:26:46<+wesdiscordbot> otherwise I"ll leave it 20190504 03:35:14<+wesdiscordbot> @Yumi I think what you said is better than what's there but I would personally pick something tougher. How about 36HP and adding 10% resistance to blade and impact? 20190504 03:37:41<+wesdiscordbot> Looking over some other units, resistances don't get used much for unclear reasons. Human Knights get 20% to blade and 30% to impact, but -20% to pierce which I think is supposed to represent their vulnerability to polearms? Wheras a Troll gets 20% to both blade and pierce but none against impact. 20190504 03:37:55<+wesdiscordbot> you're trying much too hard to make lore match gameplay 20190504 03:38:24<+wesdiscordbot> wait 20190504 03:38:27<+wesdiscordbot> other way around 20190504 03:38:29<+wesdiscordbot> I can't possibly imagine anything about that which is undesirable. 20190504 03:38:38<+wesdiscordbot> the fact that it would be an overpowered healer 20190504 03:40:05<+wesdiscordbot> So update the lore? Don't just write things and then let the mechanics drift away from them. Or, if the mechanics are conflicting with important lore, find other ways to balance than hobling a unit's concept. Like, make it more expensive if it's so ridiculously great. 20190504 03:40:22<+wesdiscordbot> nah 20190504 03:40:36<+wesdiscordbot> it's not possible to make a game match the lore 100% 20190504 03:40:41<+wesdiscordbot> otherwise units would take days to cross mountains 20190504 03:40:51<+wesdiscordbot> somehting like an ancient lich would blast through armies 20190504 03:41:01<+wesdiscordbot> a great mage would have much more than a 16-4 fireball attack 20190504 03:41:52<+wesdiscordbot> game balance is nice 20190504 03:42:18<+wesdiscordbot> only thing I wish wesnoth had is something like advance wars CO powers 20190504 03:43:06<+wesdiscordbot> I will try and study the source code to implement it in my own instance 20190504 03:44:05<+wesdiscordbot> Ugh, how would you balance that against the day cycle? The game is already about surging, a power like "Once every three days, Ranged combat gets = 20190504 03:45:15<+wesdiscordbot> advance wars can be used only once a certain criterion is met 20190504 03:45:25<+wesdiscordbot> usually doing a certain amount of damage 20190504 03:46:20<+wesdiscordbot> So you build up your charge meter. It's been like a decade since I played Advance Wars, forgive me. But isn't that sort of thing a 'winners win more' ability? 20190504 03:46:59<+wesdiscordbot> Maybe have a meter filled every time one of your units experiences combat. That way, you'd charge up on the way down as well as up. 20190504 03:47:31<+wesdiscordbot> in the advance wars game, the meter also increased if you were damaged too 20190504 03:47:45<+wesdiscordbot> however not as much as if you beat the enemy 20190504 03:48:10<+wesdiscordbot> But it's hard to think of a variety of interesting powers, and I remember reading that once online multiplayer allowed statistical analysis of Advance Wars games, it became excrutiatingly apparent that the CO powers weren't balanced at all. 20190504 03:48:27<+wesdiscordbot> well 20190504 03:48:37<+wesdiscordbot> you can just base them off simple ideas 20190504 03:49:05<+wesdiscordbot> for instance you could have the elves be invisible in forests for a turn, regardless of their level 20190504 03:49:30<+wesdiscordbot> The CO powers I remember were mostly about boosting specific unit categories- air units, sea units, infantry, vehicles. 20190504 03:49:32<+wesdiscordbot> you could have orcs increase their power by 15% for a turn 20190504 03:49:53<+wesdiscordbot> Then there was one guy who made it snow. And another who just got like, a straight 'everybody fights better' ability. 20190504 03:50:34<+wesdiscordbot> best one was this one for me https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8fscLm0M24 20190504 03:50:46<+wesdiscordbot> I loved how ridiculous it was 20190504 03:51:35<+wesdiscordbot> Again, if this is for MP balancing such wildly different concepts against each other without other mediating mechanics is really friggin' hard. Like, as part of a faction you can balance one unit with another unit, and units have lots of value to tweak up and down, but a CO power is just like a single broad stroke stat bonus. It's not fiddly. 20190504 03:54:07<+wesdiscordbot> does the game even support that kind of special case 20190504 03:54:15<+wesdiscordbot> whoops I'm responding something from hours ago accidentally 20190504 03:54:19<+wesdiscordbot> the fire-damage-in-water thing 20190504 03:54:33< celticminstrel> I believe it does actually. 20190504 03:54:45<+wesdiscordbot> yeah you can do that 20190504 03:54:49< celticminstrel> But it would probably need to be coded into every unit as a special ability. 20190504 03:54:56<+wesdiscordbot> Uggggh. 20190504 03:54:57<+wesdiscordbot> nah 20190504 03:54:58< celticminstrel> Maybe I'm wrong about that. 20190504 03:55:00<+wesdiscordbot> you can do it as an event 20190504 03:55:13<+wesdiscordbot> in wml 20190504 03:55:14< celticminstrel> I mean yeah you could also code it into the scenario, but neither is a general solution. 20190504 03:55:17<+wesdiscordbot> Are there any templates for this sort of thing? Like racial templates that determine the default stats of a race? 20190504 03:55:24< celticminstrel> Somewhat? 20190504 03:55:34<+wesdiscordbot> you could just build a macro for it 20190504 03:55:37< celticminstrel> I think "default stats" is limited to traits, movement, and defense 20190504 03:55:39<+wesdiscordbot> so it wouldn't be quite so bad 20190504 03:55:49< celticminstrel> Still not really general but sure 20190504 03:56:12<+wesdiscordbot> So is there like one place where I could push up merfold base movement to 8? 20190504 03:56:23<+wesdiscordbot> Because it's bizarre that they're slower swimmer than Naga. 20190504 03:56:26< celticminstrel> I think so. 20190504 03:56:35< celticminstrel> Movement speed is mainly in the race. 20190504 03:56:49< celticminstrel> But it can also be overridden per-unit, not sure if any of the merfolk do that. 20190504 03:56:53< celticminstrel> Probably not, but not sure. 20190504 03:57:21<+wesdiscordbot> Also, mechanically, I feel like part of making aquatic viable is to allow water units to zip around and pop up suddenly, especially since terrain wise they're usually maneuvering around obstructing land. 20190504 03:59:49<+wesdiscordbot> Another way to really help aquatic generally I think is to define a 'swimming' ability that alters the way those units interact with water. 20190504 04:00:43< celticminstrel> A swimming ability kinda feels unnecessary TBH 20190504 04:00:57< celticminstrel> Tho I don't entirely know what it would do either... 20190504 04:01:03<+wesdiscordbot> Wait, huh, there's no flying ability? 20190504 04:01:22< celticminstrel> Flying is part of the racial movement traits tho 20190504 04:01:47< celticminstrel> But yeah it's not an actual ability. 20190504 04:02:13< celticminstrel> It's just the ability to move over certain terrain, coupled with a flag to draw them hovering rather than submerged if they're over water. 20190504 04:02:27<+wesdiscordbot> Yeah, I'm just looking at the Gryphon unit page online and I was expecting a 'flying' ability, but I guess it's all handled through individual movement costs. 20190504 04:02:36< celticminstrel> Exactly 20190504 04:03:18<+wesdiscordbot> It sounds like that tag is the flying ability, but it's currently only used cosmetically. 20190504 04:04:26< celticminstrel> The "flying" key in the movement information is entirely cosmetic, yes. 20190504 04:06:09<+wesdiscordbot> I was thinking that a swimming ability could be a solution to weird interactions in combined terrain types, which would allow avoiding a multitude of individual terrains that had to be handled separately. So like, in order to handle some situations, the game could query, 'Can this unit swim? Okay, use the water movement cost and defense stats. Otherwise, use something else.' 20190504 04:07:01< celticminstrel> Oh, so kinda like... 20190504 04:07:14<+wesdiscordbot> Also, like, it's weird that undead can hide themselves in the water but merfold can't, unless they're air breathing? But the lore says only Naga need air. 20190504 04:07:40< celticminstrel> Wait no my exampe doesn't work. 20190504 04:07:55< celticminstrel> I think merfolk tend to swim close to the surface. 20190504 04:07:59<+wesdiscordbot> Also one weird case I felt would matter is a skirmisher ability that only applies to water. 20190504 04:08:08< celticminstrel> Whereas undead are forced to walk along the bottom. 20190504 04:08:50< celticminstrel> Mind you, merfolk should certainly be able to reach the bottom (barring maybe the deepest parts of the ocean)... 20190504 04:09:00<+wesdiscordbot> Or in other words, units without 'swimming' don't have zone of control over water against units with 'swimming'. 20190504 04:09:17< celticminstrel> That sounds really complicated... 20190504 04:10:25<+wesdiscordbot> Maybe? Maybe the problem is I'm trying to solve a map scale issue with a unit mechanic. 20190504 04:10:48<+wesdiscordbot> feel free to play the new TSG to see how I made maps that allow merfolk to be useful 20190504 04:10:59<+wesdiscordbot> it could be better, but it's a start 20190504 04:11:59<+wesdiscordbot> I know somebody said there is no design document, but has anyone ever specified how much space a hex is supposed to be? 20190504 04:12:05<+wesdiscordbot> so merfolk are being improved upon 20190504 04:12:17<+wesdiscordbot> I thought they were meant to be weak lol 20190504 04:12:37<+wesdiscordbot> oh well I shall read the code 20190504 04:13:11<+wesdiscordbot> my mind keeps having so many ideas, yet I must follow Torvalds mindset on showing the code of the implemented idea 20190504 04:13:12< celticminstrel> I think there was an acronym for that, something like HAPMA 20190504 04:13:19< celticminstrel> Hexes Are Possibly Miles Across 20190504 04:13:37<+wesdiscordbot> See, that's bad. 20190504 04:13:40< celticminstrel> But to put it more concretely, a hex is as big as the campaign/scenario requires it to be. 20190504 04:13:53< celticminstrel> Which personally I don't see as a problem. 20190504 04:14:06<+wesdiscordbot> There's clearly a different scale for terrain than for units, but like... it should be roughly standardized to an ideal. 20190504 04:14:22<+wesdiscordbot> sogh 20190504 04:15:38<+wesdiscordbot> henlo 20190504 04:16:21<+wesdiscordbot> Well, mechanically it can be adjusted for, but you get weird butt stuff when tactical concepts don't apply at a given scale. Somebody said in here the other day that "not all terrain types have to be able to be represented within a single hex", which I think is a really good rule, but if you can't define the scale of a hex then you can't say what kind of mechanic should be used to allow for a given map behavior. 20190504 04:17:07<+wesdiscordbot> weird butt stuff 20190504 04:17:15<+wesdiscordbot> 🔞 20190504 04:19:14<+wesdiscordbot> Like, I was thinking with the water skirmishing thing, 'A dude standing on a shore should be able to stop a merfolk from swimming past him'. But whether that's reasonable depends entirely on how close to the shore the merfolk actually is. At a given map scale, waterways should just be multiple hexes wide so a merfolk can go around, but at another scale it makes sense to have a specific ability to account for aquatic 20190504 04:19:15<+wesdiscordbot> freedom of motion. 20190504 04:19:43<+wesdiscordbot> @Rose That's my silly version of 'weird ass shit'. 20190504 04:21:24<+wesdiscordbot> oh I know what you meant 20190504 04:21:32<+wesdiscordbot> I just found those words funny in sequence 20190504 04:26:06<+wesdiscordbot> I guess the scale of terrain can be inferred from say cycle and movement speed. 20190504 04:26:55<+wesdiscordbot> what are some channels where campaigns are played? I found this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6It62UNIKk&list=PLvGEQoNFe8oeyXdHEU0q_Qn3hnVhq6weL 20190504 04:32:48<+wesdiscordbot> One turn is obviously four hours. Foot unit movement varies a lot but 5 moves seems to be a baseline. We'll call that a gear-encumbered unit at a quick march. For simplicity of math, we could say 4 moves is walking speed. Average human walking speed is 3 mph. Thus, a unit with a movement of 4 travels 4 hexes in 4 hours, and if they're traveling at 3 mph that makes a hex 3 miles across. 20190504 04:34:07<+wesdiscordbot> That seems like the high end of the sliding scale. 20190504 04:35:00< celticminstrel> "One turn is obviously four hours." - not necessarily 20190504 04:35:15< celticminstrel> Using the standard schedule, yes; but there are other schedules where it's different. 20190504 04:35:22< celticminstrel> For example there's a schedule where each turn is one hour. 20190504 04:35:37< celticminstrel> The actual game mechanics don't really change (only the bonuses for each turn differ). 20190504 04:35:45<+wesdiscordbot> Are there more phases or some other indicator of how long each phase will last? 20190504 04:35:53< celticminstrel> More phases 20190504 04:36:12< celticminstrel> Technically you could make a schedule that repeats the same phase multiple times tho 20190504 04:36:15<+wesdiscordbot> So like, the game just gives you the time? 20190504 04:36:18< celticminstrel> I personally haven't seen it done. 20190504 04:36:22< celticminstrel> Yeah, basically. 20190504 04:36:37<+wesdiscordbot> And the sun and moon just move way more slowly across the map. 20190504 04:36:45< celticminstrel> Yeah, exactly. 20190504 04:37:15<+wesdiscordbot> That must be hell in Lawful versus Chaotic matchups. 20190504 04:37:27< celticminstrel> Heh... 20190504 04:37:43< celticminstrel> I'm not actually sure what uses the 24-hour schedule. 20190504 04:37:55<+wesdiscordbot> Like, having to hold out for eight turns at a time? Woof! 20190504 04:38:11< celticminstrel> aeth was using it for some sort of RPG-type thing where each player has only one unit. 20190504 04:38:21< celticminstrel> (So, no recruiting.) 20190504 04:39:54<+wesdiscordbot> Maybe you can adjust the light modifier? So it's a lower modifier for more turns? That could be balanced and interesting and make it easier to actually take advantage in a change of the light before it ends. Like, launching a full-scale offensive and fighting all the way to your enemy's base, knowing you're fighting against the clock to get there before the advantage returns to them. 20190504 04:41:30<+wesdiscordbot> Like, the most frustrating thing to me about the current system is that you have to be in place and ready to go at dawn or you waste your advantage turns just closing with the enemy. 20190504 04:41:36< celticminstrel> IIRC it has the max modifier for like, three turns, and then the two or so turns surrounding that have lower modifiers, but I don't recall the exact numbers off the top of my head. 20190504 04:41:57<+wesdiscordbot> What I'm getting from all of this is that BfW needs to treat itself like minature trains. 20190504 04:42:05< celticminstrel> XD What 20190504 04:42:12<+wesdiscordbot> Also, Legos does this. 20190504 04:42:23<+wesdiscordbot> You need defined scales. 20190504 04:44:01< celticminstrel> I think Wesnoth has more in common with like, chess or Settlers of Catan than with Lego. 20190504 04:44:03<+wesdiscordbot> Lego has well-defined Technic, Minifigure, and Microfigure scales. 20190504 04:44:12< celticminstrel> (Note: I've never actually played Catan.) 20190504 04:46:24<+wesdiscordbot> Miniature trains have standardized N, HO, and I scales. All of the miniatures are comparable to each other at each scale and are meant to work together. 20190504 04:47:53<+wesdiscordbot> BfW's game mechanics are adaptable to different visual map scales. But, since there's little explicit standardization, the art assets and the map designs end up all over the place. By defining explicit scales, you can have different art guidlines and tile packs meant to work together to create visually and mechanically coherent environments. 20190504 04:49:38<+wesdiscordbot> Like, it's always bothered me that villages are called 'villages' when they're clearly a single building. You could have an art scale where the village art was in fact a village, or at least a group of buildings instead of a single one. 20190504 04:51:12< celticminstrel> Pretty sure some of them are two buildings 20190504 04:51:53<+wesdiscordbot> I'm not sure what you expect to come out of this tbh 20190504 04:52:37<+wesdiscordbot> @Technomancer I did a blind run of two brothers the other day 20190504 04:52:44<+wesdiscordbot> but are you prepared to see the best youtube thumbnail ever 20190504 04:52:51<+wesdiscordbot> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUioi7jhBFs 20190504 04:54:29<+wesdiscordbot> @Iris A consistent intuitive sense of reasonable mechanical behavior? 20190504 04:54:47-!- celticminstrel is now known as celmin|sleep 20190504 04:54:51< celmin|sleep> Not too likely ;p 20190504 04:54:59<+wesdiscordbot> I'm not sure if that's supposed to be a fancy way of saying you want to design your own Wesnoth-like game 20190504 04:55:45<+wesdiscordbot> I'm saying, sometimes I see the game do something, and I don't even know if it makes sense, because I don't know what other thing in the game to compare it to. 20190504 04:55:47<+wesdiscordbot> lol 20190504 04:57:32<+wesdiscordbot> 'how hard could it really be' 20190504 04:57:42<+wesdiscordbot> it's harder than other rts games 20190504 04:57:46<+wesdiscordbot> that's for sure 20190504 04:58:04<+wesdiscordbot> It's certainly not an RTS 20190504 04:59:05<+wesdiscordbot> wait 20190504 04:59:45<+wesdiscordbot> you mean to say it's defined as another strategy game subgenre? 20190504 05:00:00<+wesdiscordbot> Turn based strategy, not real time strategy 20190504 05:00:16<+wesdiscordbot> lol, I always mix them up 20190504 05:03:19<+wesdiscordbot> uhh in any case I have a map editor question, how is the village ownership and units set, the editor says there is a need to be a defined side, but what tools allows one to define the side? I have set a 'player one' with the starting position tool if that is related. 20190504 05:11:37<+wesdiscordbot> I found this in a merfolk cfg file: movement_type=swimmer 20190504 05:12:11<+wesdiscordbot> I dunno what it does, but clearly it is a thing. 20190504 05:18:41<+wesdiscordbot> see https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/blob/master/data/core/units.cfg#L945 20190504 05:21:42<+wesdiscordbot> So it's a preset movement costs list that allows movement costs for multiple units to be controlled from a single place? 20190504 05:23:30<+wesdiscordbot> Every time I scroll that page the text disappears and doesn't reappear for several seconds. 20190504 05:24:05<+wesdiscordbot> it's just github, so that sounds like a browser problem. 20190504 05:34:22<+wesdiscordbot> Are there racially defined resistances? Because I can't find the 20% cold resist listed in the Triton's cfg file, despite it being in other merfolk's files. 20190504 05:38:58<+wesdiscordbot> those are also in the movetype 20190504 05:41:49<+wesdiscordbot> Wait, I think I misread something. Other merfolk have resistances listed, but not the cold resistance specifically. 20190504 05:42:44<+wesdiscordbot> resistances in the specific unit file override what's in the movetype. so the priestess has the swimmer movetype, but overrides the arcane resistance value, for example. 20190504 05:48:18<+wesdiscordbot> Is there a list somewhere of all the status effects in the game? 20190504 05:48:52<+wesdiscordbot> Doing web searches for BfW content seems to usually get me pages defining how to code said content, not what content exists. 20190504 05:52:29<+wesdiscordbot> https://wiki.wesnoth.org/SingleUnitWML#Unit_State under [status] 20190504 05:57:23<+wesdiscordbot> Thank you! 20190504 05:59:44<+wesdiscordbot> Now I'm wondering if and how the AI takes status effects into account. 20190504 06:00:34<+wesdiscordbot> Does BfW AI just generate units and spit them at the player on a script or does it have a chess engine that examines trees of possible moves? 20190504 06:04:02<+wesdiscordbot> I know it's more complicated than the latter, but it's not something I really know much about. mattsc is the one who's mostly working on the AI, so you could ask him and-or read through https://wiki.wesnoth.org/Wesnoth_AI 20190504 06:04:59<+wesdiscordbot> he's also working on a newer AI, with a forum thread here: https://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=43048 20190504 06:12:40<+wesdiscordbot> Is there any kind of poison resistance mechanic in the game? Or do all units always take exactly 8 damage from poison? 20190504 06:14:32<+wesdiscordbot> undead can't be poisoned, and standing next to units that can heal but don't have cures prevents the poison from reducing hp. not sure if resting reduces the 8 to 6 though. 20190504 06:14:37<+wesdiscordbot> I suppose the dwarven 'healthy' trait (that's a terribly confusing name) effectively limits poison's effect. 20190504 06:15:08<+wesdiscordbot> Unless the poison state prevents the healthy heal? 20190504 06:15:17<+wesdiscordbot> Depends on how healthy is implemented. 20190504 06:15:21<+wesdiscordbot> regeneration also cures poison instead of healing for a turn 20190504 06:16:25<+wesdiscordbot> I'm trying to wrap my head around what hitpoints represent, and I was starting to think 'absolute ability to endure poison' was a good benchmark, but then I realized it also scales healing effectiveness. 20190504 06:16:42<+wesdiscordbot> also also poison will never kill a unit 20190504 06:16:46<+wesdiscordbot> if that counts 20190504 06:17:04<+wesdiscordbot> So, a unit with lot of hitpoints takes a long time to lose its health to poison, but also takes a long time to heal back up. 20190504 06:17:43<+wesdiscordbot> Which is valid, but still limiting. 20190504 06:18:55<+wesdiscordbot> I think you're overcomplicating it, to be honest. hitpoints are the thing that makes you lose a unit if they hit 0. 20190504 06:19:38<+wesdiscordbot> Well, earlier someone said that resistances are used to represent armor, which differentiates it from just having more hitpoints 20190504 06:20:58<+wesdiscordbot> resistances are essentially a multiplier for hitpoints. if a 100 hp unit has a 60% resistance to cold, it effectively can take 160 hitpoints of cold damage. 20190504 06:22:53<+wesdiscordbot> I think that would be 250, actually, but I'm not 100% positive. 20190504 06:24:22<+wesdiscordbot> might be, but I'm too tired to think about it more :P the point remains the same though 20190504 06:25:07<+wesdiscordbot> If 60% resistance means you only take 40% of the damage, then a 10 cold damage attack would do 4 damage. With no resistance, it would take ten attacks hitting to kill a 100 hitpoint unit. Receiving only 4 dmg per hit would mean it takes 25 landed hits to kill the unit, which is 25 x 10 = 250 base damage. 20190504 06:26:43<+wesdiscordbot> yeah, that makes more sense 20190504 06:27:02<+wesdiscordbot> 100 / 0.4 rather than 100 * 1.6 20190504 06:27:37<+wesdiscordbot> what's more fun, modifying a wesnoth instance or playing the game as it is 20190504 06:27:43<+wesdiscordbot> I will have to find out 20190504 06:30:21<+wesdiscordbot> If you're taking 60% of the damage, it's actually really close at 166.6, I think, but I'm moderately confident. 20190504 06:31:39<+wesdiscordbot> As resistance goes up it arithmetically it becomes exponentially more effective. 20190504 06:38:36-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth 20190504 06:38:40<+wesdiscordbot> ...I think frontline magic wielding units might be better represented with high defense/evasion than with more hitpoints. 20190504 06:39:40<+wesdiscordbot> The difference is one is consistent and the other is vulnerable to RNG. 20190504 06:41:37<+wesdiscordbot> So like, if your high-level wizard is using magical shielding or whatever to not get hurt instead of being able to soak arrows, that's great right up until the RNG bails on you and then it's like 'what did he suddenly forget how to block arrows for a minute'? 20190504 06:43:27<+wesdiscordbot> the randomness of attacks can hurt 20190504 06:43:40<+wesdiscordbot> This is like the problem in older versions of Civilization where sometimes a spearman could kill a battleship. 20190504 06:43:48<+wesdiscordbot> it has happened to me that a full health is killed because of that simple fact 20190504 06:44:51<+wesdiscordbot> I think this suggests there's a vacancy for an ability that modifies RNG on the defense. Offensively, it's modified by having multiple attacks, so that the amount of damage done tends to average out. Defensively, there's nothing for it. 20190504 06:44:52<+wesdiscordbot> reminds me of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capture_of_the_Dutch_fleet_at_Den_Helder 20190504 06:45:23<+wesdiscordbot> Gosh dang that's amazing. 20190504 06:47:03<+wesdiscordbot> But about a unit abilitiy that defends against bad RNG.... off the top of my head, the first idea that comes to mind is that combat ends after the first hit, but that's obviously overpowered. 20190504 06:48:35<+wesdiscordbot> "Maximum number of hits versus this unit is reduced by 1" feels more balanced, but is unintuitive as heck. 20190504 06:50:29<+wesdiscordbot> Defense increases by 10% after every hit? Or every attack? Eugh, no, that's a nightmare on several levels. 20190504 06:50:52<+wesdiscordbot> Also, I don't think it actually caps bad RNG. 20190504 06:53:05<+wesdiscordbot> Does the game resolve combat statistically before animating it? 20190504 06:53:18<+wesdiscordbot> Oooh, ooh! 20190504 06:53:37<+wesdiscordbot> The first hit in any combat could be completely blocked! 20190504 06:53:52<+wesdiscordbot> Wait, no, is that overpowered? 20190504 06:54:07<+wesdiscordbot> Not many things do only one attack. 20190504 06:54:28<+wesdiscordbot> Half damage on the first hit? Does that actually cap bad RNG? 20190504 06:56:25<+wesdiscordbot> Part of the issue is a lack of subtractive armor mechanics to being with. There's no 'attacks against this enemy do -1 damage' stat. Stuff like that differentiates between multiple weaker attacks and fewer heavy hit. 20190504 06:58:04<+wesdiscordbot> I feel like it would be hard to add a layer of subtractive armor to resistances, but right now the way resistances are integrated into the game is visually unintuitive, which is probably why so many units' stats ignore them. It's a pain to look them up and keep track of them. 20190504 06:59:18<+wesdiscordbot> That still wouldn't cap bad RNG, but it would open up new dynamics for unit design. 20190504 07:06:45<+wesdiscordbot> A 'block' ability that reduces the first hit either arithmetically or multiplicatively seems to have potential, but there's design requirement issues. It doesn't exactly cap bad RNG, either, but I think it reduces the spread on the numbers. Blocking the first hit entirely would definitely reduce the spread. And really, for low-damage single-strike units, there's not a difference, so maybe ignore ways for the block to 20190504 07:06:46<+wesdiscordbot> be penetrated and focus on the design requirements. Is every unit supposed to be able to harm every other unit? I feel like the answer is yes. 20190504 07:07:12<+wesdiscordbot> You could move the block to the second hit? Is that too awkward? 20190504 07:09:45<+wesdiscordbot> Alternatively, block/magic shield could only be used once per turn and couldn't be used two turns in a row. So, it would tie into the resting mechanics, maybe? But that's another thing to keep track of visually that there's no indicators for. 20190504 07:13:42<+wesdiscordbot> On the flip side, there's definitely room for a 'first hit always lands' ability, maybe something for assassin types. But there's already multiple kinds of defense mitigation for attackers. 20190504 07:14:47<+wesdiscordbot> I dunno, it's a nasty problem. Giving squishy wizards piles of hitpoints is weird and has weird side effects. 20190504 07:17:16<+wesdiscordbot> Which is like, part of the game, I guess, but I quit XCOM over that bullshit and never went back. 20190504 07:17:35<+wesdiscordbot> 1% chance to hit my ass. 20190504 07:17:51<+wesdiscordbot> in the following wml tutorial, there are some spaces for screenshots, https://wiki.wesnoth.org/WML_for_Complete_Beginners:_Chapter_4 but there's only text, is there any chance one could contribute with the screenshots for that part of the tutorial or should one wait till the original owner can edit it? 20190504 07:38:17<+wesdiscordbot> @Karma Chimera you can also see the unit's resistances by hovering over the hp in the right sidebar. 20190504 07:39:38<+wesdiscordbot> as far as unit designs/abilities go though, I doubt there's going to be much chance of getting those added to the mainline MP factions. 20190504 07:56:31<+wesdiscordbot> so apparently firefox is having a pretty massive issue with add-ons right now >.> 20190504 08:07:42-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87.static.drei.at] has joined #wesnoth 20190504 08:12:05-!- joemaro [~joemaro@59.red-37-12-55.dynamicip.rima-tde.net] has joined #wesnoth 20190504 08:22:08<+wesdiscordbot> nice, finally got a basic grasp of wml 20190504 08:22:14<+wesdiscordbot> gotta delve deeper into lua 20190504 08:22:20<+wesdiscordbot> and if needed the c++ code 20190504 08:33:20-!- joemaro [~joemaro@59.red-37-12-55.dynamicip.rima-tde.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20190504 08:46:59<+wesdiscordbot> here there be dragons 20190504 08:47:33<+wesdiscordbot> or, there there rather 20190504 15:49:39-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87.static.drei.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20190504 15:50:58-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87.static.drei.at] has joined #wesnoth 20190504 17:07:01-!- joemaro [~joemaro@59.red-37-12-55.dynamicip.rima-tde.net] has joined #wesnoth 20190504 17:22:58<+wesdiscordbot> So, from what I can tell movetype doesn't say anything about base moves for a unit. I also don't see anything about it in what looks like the racial definition. Is there a place where base moves for a race, or for other categories of units, is set? Or is that done individually for each unit? 20190504 17:30:16< zookeeper> that'd be movetypes. dunno what you're looking at exactly if you're not seeing the movement costs. 20190504 17:33:14<+wesdiscordbot> I mean the amount of moves a unit is alotted, not how many moves they have to spend to move through each terrain. 20190504 17:50:19<+wesdiscordbot> that's a per-unit thing 20190504 17:52:27<+wesdiscordbot> K, thanks. 20190504 17:52:48<+wesdiscordbot> The base defense list for the swimmer movetype is kinda weird: [defense] deep_water=50 shallow_water=40 reef=30 swamp_water=40 flat=70 sand=70 forest=70 hills=70 village=60 castle=60 cave=80 frozen=70 fungus=80 [/defense] 20190504 17:53:16<+wesdiscordbot> Like, are there any swimmer units that actually use this? Because that would be nuts. 20190504 17:53:38<+wesdiscordbot> Wait wait I think I'm reading it backwards. 20190504 17:53:59<+wesdiscordbot> Ugh, it's like resistance, isn't it? It's writting opposite in the code to how it's displayed in the game. 20190504 17:54:35< zookeeper> yes. 20190504 17:55:51-!- joemaro [~joemaro@59.red-37-12-55.dynamicip.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20190504 17:56:37<+wesdiscordbot> I don't get why they do worse in caves. Honestly they seem more suited to caves than outdoors on open ground. 20190504 17:56:57<+wesdiscordbot> And I don't get why the movement cost for flat is only 2. Like, that makes it barely an obstacle. 20190504 17:58:30<+wesdiscordbot> Same reason people wouldn’t do well on coral 20190504 17:59:36<+wesdiscordbot> Cave floors are made of jagged sharp rock? 20190504 18:00:04-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87.static.drei.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20190504 18:01:08<+wesdiscordbot> I thought 'cave' just meant 'this flat land has a roof over it and may be dark, cramped and uneven ground'. 20190504 18:01:09<+wesdiscordbot> Rough, uneven, prone to large tilts in angle, and a lot of the time, yes jagged 20190504 18:01:38<+wesdiscordbot> It’d count as indoor, not cave, if it was nice and mouth 20190504 18:01:38<+wesdiscordbot> It's not like a merfolk is going to lose their footing. 20190504 18:02:04<+wesdiscordbot> Actually with a single large fin/tail, they’d be even more likely to lose their footing 20190504 18:02:13<+wesdiscordbot> Because they can’t balance as well 20190504 18:02:56<+wesdiscordbot> They can't move as well. They can stay in one place just fine. 20190504 18:03:23<+wesdiscordbot> When was the last time you saw a fish lose their balance? 20190504 18:03:44<+wesdiscordbot> Merfolk aren’t fish, and plenty 20190504 18:03:53<+wesdiscordbot> Ever seen what happens when a shark rolls? 20190504 18:04:13<+wesdiscordbot> Merfolk have a upper body to contend with 20190504 18:04:27<+wesdiscordbot> You mean that think when they bite something and spin? I thought that was crocodiles. 20190504 18:05:01<+wesdiscordbot> Nah, if a shark whether on it’s own, or done by something else, rolls onto its belly 20190504 18:05:04<+wesdiscordbot> It dies 20190504 18:05:12<+wesdiscordbot> Cause it can’t breath properly 20190504 18:05:27<+wesdiscordbot> I thought they can't breathe because they're not in the water? 20190504 18:05:42<+wesdiscordbot> And like, pushing water past their gills? 20190504 18:05:58<+wesdiscordbot> Merfold seem to have bullshit respiration, by the way. 20190504 18:06:15<+wesdiscordbot> I always figured they were magical 20190504 18:06:23<+wesdiscordbot> And that naga were non magical 20190504 18:06:33<+wesdiscordbot> Kinda like how drakes are magical 20190504 18:06:33<+wesdiscordbot> The lore implies they're water breathing and Naga are air breathing, but Naga are faster in the water and Merfolk can stay out of the water indefinitely. 20190504 18:06:52<+wesdiscordbot> Magic is a good excuse, though. 20190504 18:07:15<+wesdiscordbot> Cause drakes need their inner fire to live, I figured merfolk have something similar 20190504 18:07:29<+wesdiscordbot> Like, 'magic innate to out bodies lets our gills suck oxygen out of air. We don't like it, though.' 20190504 18:07:53<+wesdiscordbot> So what, merfolk have 'inner water'? 20190504 18:08:05-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20190504 18:08:06<+wesdiscordbot> Fits with mermaid magic, really. 20190504 18:10:21<+wesdiscordbot> Anyway, personally I'd have merfolk do worse on flat and better in caves. 20190504 18:10:55<+wesdiscordbot> Also, the lack of mechanical distinction between beaches and deserts produces a really weird artifact of them being not terrible in deserts. 20190504 18:11:20<+wesdiscordbot> Well, I mean, they're still bad there. 20190504 18:11:33<+wesdiscordbot> 🌵🐠 20190504 18:11:43<+wesdiscordbot> But like, not as bad as you would expect, for a fish in a desert. 20190504 18:12:58<+wesdiscordbot> I mean, makes sense a little, the single support is bad for stuff likes cave 20190504 18:13:06<+wesdiscordbot> But more surface area is better for sand 20190504 18:14:18<+wesdiscordbot> Actually, huh, there's a possible solution to the problem I have with ford handling in there- divide 'sand' into 'shore' and 'desert', and then make sandy beaches, rocky beaches, and fords all cosmetic variations on 'shore', and let desert be its own thing. 20190504 18:15:05<+wesdiscordbot> The lack of rocky beaches is like its own issue, but in looking at ford handling its absense was noticeable. 20190504 18:16:30<+wesdiscordbot> Do elves have inner trees? 20190504 18:16:53<+wesdiscordbot> Do dwarves have inner stone? Or would that be trolls? 20190504 18:17:46<+wesdiscordbot> Given the writing of the lore, Orcs seem to have inner poison. 20190504 18:19:13<+wesdiscordbot> I haven't seen any deep lore for BfW that explains why the setting is what it is yet. 20190504 18:19:30<+wesdiscordbot> Like, what are the gods like, where did the races come from, that sort of thing. 20190504 18:19:47<+wesdiscordbot> Nah, orc would probably embody life 20190504 18:19:57<+wesdiscordbot> Strong, fast to reproduce 20190504 18:20:06<+wesdiscordbot> And very chaotic 20190504 18:20:12<+wesdiscordbot> They have no females and bud like fungus out of the ground. 20190504 18:20:16<+wesdiscordbot> In all senses of the term 20190504 18:20:27<+wesdiscordbot> That’s warhammer 40k 20190504 18:20:42<+wesdiscordbot> And BfD isn't ripping that off? 20190504 18:20:43<+wesdiscordbot> And yeah, that’s the basic essence of life 20190504 18:20:47<+wesdiscordbot> Nah 20190504 18:20:54-!- aeth [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20190504 18:21:08<+wesdiscordbot> BfW is a play on Tolkien 20190504 18:21:23<+wesdiscordbot> Because I've never seen a female orc unit in BfD and the lore says goblins and orcs are the same race that just automatically spawns separate castes. 20190504 18:22:18-!- aeth [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #wesnoth 20190504 18:22:55<+wesdiscordbot> Yeah, it’s not actually explained where they come from 20190504 18:23:01<+wesdiscordbot> At least not officially 20190504 18:23:15<+wesdiscordbot> It’s says they’re born in the orc description 20190504 18:23:34<+wesdiscordbot> But Tolkien orcs are also ‘born’ even though there’s no females 20190504 18:26:19<+wesdiscordbot> Don't Tolkien orcs spawn in a pit like fucking tadpoles or sea monkeys or something? 20190504 18:27:14<+wesdiscordbot> Haven’t read it in forever, but I believe it’s a pit, don’t remember anything about flooded or water though 20190504 18:27:46<+wesdiscordbot> Granted I’ve also never read the simralion because I’m a heretic 20190504 18:28:09<+wesdiscordbot> I dunno, the BfD lore descriptions for orcs have always felt uncomfortably racist to me. Like, it's actually creepy how nakedly and unashamedly contemptuous and hateful the unit and trait descriptions are. 20190504 18:28:47<+wesdiscordbot> To be fair, that’s probably how the orc would describe themselves as well 20190504 18:29:07<+wesdiscordbot> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/231976805987385345/574301486293450762/unknown.png 20190504 18:29:23<+wesdiscordbot> They seem to have no qualms being the bad guy 20190504 18:29:31<+wesdiscordbot> That is some old school 19th century european white supremacy there. 20190504 18:29:35<+wesdiscordbot> Huh okay actually I see your point 20190504 18:30:11<+wesdiscordbot> It’d not be as bad if there were other creatures who used dim 20190504 18:30:33<+wesdiscordbot> I don't have a problem with the story making the orcs the bad guys. 20190504 18:31:30<+wesdiscordbot> I just feel really uncomfortable with the way the descriptions treat them as intrinsically inferior. And it's very consistent across all the orc descriptions. 20190504 18:32:00<+wesdiscordbot> hello I am from the national society against the mistreatment of orcs (NSAMO) 20190504 18:32:08<+wesdiscordbot> and I hear there are anti-orc racists in this channel 20190504 18:32:39<+wesdiscordbot> for real though it's crazy to suggest that orcs are some kind of allegory for nonwhites, please do not do this 20190504 18:33:09<+wesdiscordbot> Fantasy racism is still real racism, and it encourages your audience to adopt a racist mindset within that fantasy setting, which makes it easier for them to adopt such attitudes once they leave your fantasy world. 20190504 18:33:18<+wesdiscordbot> my dude 20190504 18:33:24<+wesdiscordbot> this is a fantasy world and it would be a very boring place if you couldn't have fantasy races that have certain across-the-board traits like "stupid" or "strong" or "magically adept" or "magically untalented" 20190504 18:34:02<+wesdiscordbot> "Always chaotic evil" is a cop-out against figuring out how to write actual characters with motivations for conflict. 20190504 18:34:04<+wesdiscordbot> unless you want literally every species to be a human wearing an orc/elf/etc suit 20190504 18:34:17<+wesdiscordbot> it's more like species can have a predilection towards being chaotic evil 20190504 18:34:20<+wesdiscordbot> it's like how drizzt is a decent dude 20190504 18:34:22<+wesdiscordbot> but more dark elves are not 20190504 18:34:25<+wesdiscordbot> Okay 20190504 18:34:26<+wesdiscordbot> Stop 20190504 18:34:32<+wesdiscordbot> this probably isn't known by a lot of players, but we've already discussed this in dev chat in great detail 20190504 18:34:50<+wesdiscordbot> when people try to force these kinds of politics into video games it makes me want to pry my eyeballs out of my head 20190504 18:35:06<+wesdiscordbot> doing a lot of these things is out of the scope of 1.x 20190504 18:35:09<+wesdiscordbot> I'd like to see you actually try to do that. 20190504 18:35:23<+wesdiscordbot> but we're going to start handling things differently in 2.0 20190504 18:35:31<+wesdiscordbot> That's great! 20190504 18:35:44<+wesdiscordbot> if you want more detail, as I've said before 20190504 18:35:46<+wesdiscordbot> I'm very excited for social justice wesnoth 20190504 18:35:53<+wesdiscordbot> Antagonists should be given more nuance, especially in large groups in which there should be variation. 20190504 18:35:56<+wesdiscordbot> wesnoth has never had any dedicated writers 20190504 18:36:03<+wesdiscordbot> historically 20190504 18:36:17<+wesdiscordbot> so it only could be a LotR copycat more or less 20190504 18:36:41<+wesdiscordbot> That would be very fitting, as LotR is all about how evil loves to copy things. 20190504 18:36:45<+wesdiscordbot> (whether or not you want to say anything about the fantasy genre as a whole is another story) 20190504 18:36:50<+wesdiscordbot> but anyway 20190504 18:36:58<+wesdiscordbot> this is a topic for 2.0 20190504 18:37:12<+wesdiscordbot> likely nobody will do anything about it in 1.x 20190504 18:37:29<+wesdiscordbot> Oh sure, this is the sort of stuff you'd need to overhaul from the ground up. 20190504 18:37:29<+wesdiscordbot> why even bother having species that aren't human if you are just going to make them another boring "shades of grey" archetype instead of having overarching traits (which some individual members of that species might avert) 20190504 18:37:43<+wesdiscordbot> Uggggggh do you hate stories or something? 20190504 18:37:57<+wesdiscordbot> I hate people injecting their dumb politics into fantasy worlds, which is literally the opposite of hating stories 20190504 18:38:06<+wesdiscordbot> I suggest you don't flame me, I don't want to go into a rant about writing 20190504 18:38:12<+wesdiscordbot> I'm not flaming 20190504 18:38:16<+wesdiscordbot> please don't accuse me of something I'm not doing 20190504 18:38:17<+wesdiscordbot> "I can't stand having to think for a single moment about what this character is thinking! Make them always stupid and evil so I can not have to ever do that!" 20190504 18:38:29<+wesdiscordbot> I know, it's just edging close to there 20190504 18:38:33<+wesdiscordbot> karma pls read my message again, it said: (which some individual members of that species might avert) 20190504 18:38:42<+wesdiscordbot> you're arguing against orcs being, as a general rule, stupid 20190504 18:38:46<+wesdiscordbot> you're even saying that's somehow irl racist (lol) 20190504 18:38:52<+wesdiscordbot> i think it'd be strange if there weren't some degree of racial hatred between the fantasy races of wesnoth, they kill and plunder each other all the time don't they? 20190504 18:39:01<+wesdiscordbot> it's hard to not hate people when they are doing that to you 20190504 18:39:02<+wesdiscordbot> Oh sure. 20190504 18:39:02<+wesdiscordbot> yes 20190504 18:39:08<+wesdiscordbot> let me explain this to you from a technical standpoint then 20190504 18:39:13<+wesdiscordbot> The question is, who is writing the in-game encycliopedia? 20190504 18:39:27<+wesdiscordbot> maybe the winners of wesnoth history 20190504 18:39:32<+wesdiscordbot> injecting social justice into a story for only the sake of social justice 20190504 18:39:34<+wesdiscordbot> is not a good idea 20190504 18:39:37<+wesdiscordbot> humans i guess? 20190504 18:39:40<+wesdiscordbot> yes, yumi 20190504 18:39:42<+wesdiscordbot> if it's present 20190504 18:39:43<+wesdiscordbot> Like, it could be a valid design choice for the encyclopedia to be written by a specific human character with specific biases. 20190504 18:39:46<+wesdiscordbot> it should emerge naturally from the story 20190504 18:39:51<+wesdiscordbot> But, that would be part of the storytelling. 20190504 18:39:53<+wesdiscordbot> not someone spewing it out of nowhere 20190504 18:40:02<+wesdiscordbot> in the case of orcs, however 20190504 18:40:04<+wesdiscordbot> if someone seriously has a problem with orcs being dumber than human on average, I can't see how that's not just injecting social justice for the sake of it 20190504 18:40:19<+wesdiscordbot> the fantasy genre has beaten the "orcs and goblins are stupid and violent" trope to death a thousand times over 20190504 18:40:24<+wesdiscordbot> copying it again is literally pointless 20190504 18:40:33<+wesdiscordbot> like, my dudes, if you make a campaign that shows an orc or a troll wearing glasses Arcanum style and a being a genius scientist or something, I would be like "wow what an interesting character I want to hear about this" 20190504 18:40:38<+wesdiscordbot> but if you then proceed 20190504 18:40:40<+wesdiscordbot> I said I didn't want to rant, but I guess I'm going to now 20190504 18:40:43<+wesdiscordbot> to say that orcs and trolls on average are basically the same as humans 20190504 18:40:46<+wesdiscordbot> I'm just going to roll my eyes 20190504 18:41:03<+wesdiscordbot> That is literally what racism is, dude. 20190504 18:41:05<+wesdiscordbot> in general, the fantasy genre is incredibly guilty of copying things from LotR without understanding what makes LotR good 20190504 18:41:07<+wesdiscordbot> let yumi make his point, strawmen don't help anyone 20190504 18:41:09<+wesdiscordbot> it's a fantasy game, karma 20190504 18:41:13<+wesdiscordbot> >Several people are typing 20190504 18:41:14<+wesdiscordbot> I don't know if you know this, but orcs aren't real 20190504 18:41:17<+wesdiscordbot> Oh noe 20190504 18:41:39<+wesdiscordbot> LotR maybe have been a thematic and unique work in its time, but that's not the case anymore 20190504 18:41:43<+wesdiscordbot> after yumi makes said point, you can then proceed to interact with it lol 20190504 18:41:56<+wesdiscordbot> fair, was responding to karma tho 20190504 18:42:07<+wesdiscordbot> Inventing a not real thing that's okay to be contemptuous of and then wallowing in that contempt is not mentally healthy and should be avoided. 20190504 18:42:16<+wesdiscordbot> times change, writing changes, and telling me that a 100 year old story should guide every step of the way you write now is a very outdated way of thinking 20190504 18:42:28<+wesdiscordbot> now, why might we care about racism against orcs? 20190504 18:42:32<+wesdiscordbot> nobody says it's reflective of real life 20190504 18:42:37<+wesdiscordbot> karma literally just suggested 20190504 18:42:38<+wesdiscordbot> but the fact of the matter is 20190504 18:42:39<+wesdiscordbot> that it's reflective of real life 20190504 18:42:57<+wesdiscordbot> like, you wouldn't necessarily extrapolate to "orcs are non whites" 20190504 18:43:05<+wesdiscordbot> but if you have more and more racism in your story 20190504 18:43:14<+wesdiscordbot> it's reflective of a wholly unpleasant world 20190504 18:43:35<+wesdiscordbot> and I guess your readers/players would start to wonder what kind of person you are 20190504 18:43:40<+wesdiscordbot> from a thematic standpoint 20190504 18:43:43<+wesdiscordbot> it doesn't have any merits 20190504 18:43:49<+wesdiscordbot> unless you're racist irl 20190504 18:43:56<+wesdiscordbot> now, racism is a thing 20190504 18:44:02<+wesdiscordbot> "everyone is an ass to everyone else" also gets old pretty quickly 20190504 18:44:05<+wesdiscordbot> yes 20190504 18:44:08<+wesdiscordbot> in writing 20190504 18:44:16<+wesdiscordbot> you don't strictly have to have a character that people like 20190504 18:44:26<+wesdiscordbot> but it makes it much easier for people to connect to your story if they like the characters 20190504 18:44:30<+wesdiscordbot> and like the way at least some people behave 20190504 18:44:35<+wesdiscordbot> i don't see an issue with unpleasantness by itself tbh, Wesnoth is a wargame and people fight and kill (and do worse) and die in wars, that's not very pleasant by most standards 20190504 18:44:40<+wesdiscordbot> do go on though 20190504 18:44:41<+wesdiscordbot> racism in a fantasy world is natural and expected when you've got species murdering each other and/or allying together to defeat other races 20190504 18:44:48<+wesdiscordbot> it's natural and expected 20190504 18:44:53<+wesdiscordbot> but if you are a writer 20190504 18:44:53<+wesdiscordbot> if orcs are invading a dwarf stronghold of course dwarves are going to start hating orcs as a whole 20190504 18:45:02<+wesdiscordbot> don't you feel the want to do something different than what literally 10000 other people have done? 20190504 18:45:30<+wesdiscordbot> there is absolutely nothing unique or interesting about turning a story into a thinly veiled political soap box 20190504 18:45:46<+wesdiscordbot> The only one on a soap box here is you 20190504 18:46:00<+wesdiscordbot> imo it is important for new works to constantly interact with, recycle, and reclaim old material 20190504 18:46:00<+wesdiscordbot> It's okay to have racism in a story, but it's important to make a distinction between racism the characters engage in and racism the author has towards the characters. Currently, the way BfW is written doesn't distinguish that much at all, and it's problematic. 20190504 18:46:07<+wesdiscordbot> like I said, it should emerge naturally out of the story 20190504 18:46:15<+wesdiscordbot> problematic 20190504 18:46:16<+wesdiscordbot> ok lol I'm checking out 20190504 18:46:28<+wesdiscordbot> my eyes just rolled out of my head, they're gone now 20190504 18:46:31<+wesdiscordbot> they're bouncing out my front door 20190504 18:46:37<+wesdiscordbot> there should also be ways to do so that include racial hatred between Wesnoth's fantasy races, without doing the exact same thing as what has been done many times before 20190504 18:46:47<+wesdiscordbot> interesting, new ways 20190504 18:47:03<+wesdiscordbot> let me remind you that the dev team is totally volunteers 20190504 18:47:06<+wesdiscordbot> I'm sorry my word hurt you. 20190504 18:47:18<+wesdiscordbot> I didn't realize how soft and delicate you were, that a word could hurt you so bad. 20190504 18:47:29<+wesdiscordbot> 🙄 20190504 18:47:30<+wesdiscordbot> Maybe you need a safe space to be protected from the bad word? 20190504 18:47:34<+wesdiscordbot> keep it civil. 20190504 18:47:46<+wesdiscordbot> if we're here to have a discussion, i don't think jeering at each other helps 20190504 18:47:52<+wesdiscordbot> ^ 20190504 18:47:53<+wesdiscordbot> if we're not here to have a discussion, feel free 20190504 18:48:04<+wesdiscordbot> we have rules in this server 20190504 18:48:07<+wesdiscordbot> yes 20190504 18:48:10<+wesdiscordbot> please follow them 20190504 18:48:28<+wesdiscordbot> I just hate the hypocrisy of going on about being oversensitive, to the point of being oversensitive to anyone discussing sensitivity. 20190504 18:48:37<+wesdiscordbot> if you're going to make an argument, it shouldn't be ad hominem 20190504 18:49:11<+wesdiscordbot> but as I said, dev team is volunteers 20190504 18:49:38<+wesdiscordbot> Nobody's being oversensitive as far as I can tell. You can either discuss this in a civilized fashion without baselessly accusing people of things or you can drop the subject entirely, it's up to you 20190504 18:49:42<+wesdiscordbot> I've done two campaign revisions, the first of which had a lot of pushback from other devs and took a loooot of time (maybe 2-3 times what I originally thought) 20190504 18:49:55<+wesdiscordbot> 'Problematic' is a perfectly serviceable word to describe things which tend to give rise to non-specific problems when interacted with. 20190504 18:50:17<+wesdiscordbot> I'm not willing to sink many hundreds of hours for free into the game 20190504 18:50:18<+wesdiscordbot> I don't want perfectly innocuous diction policed. 20190504 18:50:37<+wesdiscordbot> glhf guys 20190504 18:50:51<+wesdiscordbot> and it's not really within my abilities to revise the whole world on my own, especially since this isn't a one person project 20190504 18:51:07-!- aeth [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20190504 18:51:20<+wesdiscordbot> that's why anything you say is noted, but it likely cant happen in 1.x 20190504 18:51:49<+wesdiscordbot> I'm just really happy to hear you've discussed the attitude towards orcs in the lore and want to go a different direction moving forward. I know how thankless this sort of project tends to be. 20190504 18:51:51<+wesdiscordbot> suffice to say, we're trying to actually make 2.0 a more "professional" game all around frmo the writing side 20190504 18:52:08<+wesdiscordbot> but we're still volunteers, we have lives and other things going on 20190504 18:52:26<+wesdiscordbot> what made you choose godot over something else using c++ 20190504 18:52:32<+wesdiscordbot> ask Vultraz 20190504 18:52:33<+wesdiscordbot> was it the ease of use? 20190504 18:52:34<+wesdiscordbot> I don't know 20190504 18:52:35<+wesdiscordbot> ohh 20190504 18:52:36<+wesdiscordbot> So like, are there dedicated writer(s) now? How do you even define writing in a game like this? 20190504 18:52:42<+wesdiscordbot> that would be me, I guess 20190504 18:52:49<+wesdiscordbot> since I don't reaaallly do much coding 20190504 18:52:51<+wesdiscordbot> Like, map making and scenario design is a big part of writing to me, in this genre. 20190504 18:53:08-!- aeth [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #wesnoth 20190504 18:53:42<+wesdiscordbot> balancing units and the programming of said balance sounds like the hardest task to me, because a lot tweaking must be involved 20190504 18:53:43<+wesdiscordbot> I already told you that I don't really think that gameplay needs to match lore 100% 20190504 18:53:47<+wesdiscordbot> the more the better, but when it can't, it can't 20190504 18:54:04<+wesdiscordbot> so from map making and scenario design, I try to make them in a way that invites interesting gameplay 20190504 18:54:25<+wesdiscordbot> such as the player needing to choose different strategies, like being flanked and focusing units on one side or another 20190504 18:54:42<+wesdiscordbot> dispersing their army to avoid a strong push attack from the enemy 20190504 18:54:47<+wesdiscordbot> puzzles, stuff like that 20190504 18:55:31<+wesdiscordbot> from a lore perspective, BfW right now is missing a lot of details and is more or less a LotR copycat 20190504 18:55:57<+wesdiscordbot> Again, I think Tolkien would approve of the irony of that. 20190504 18:56:02<+wesdiscordbot> so worldbuilding-wise, we need to make a lot of stuff for 2.0 20190504 18:56:11<+wesdiscordbot> @Technomancer The main problem with 1.x is that it has tons of custom things. Custom scripting (WML), custom UI toolkit (GUI1, GUI2, ThemeWML), and so on. The main goal was to use something that would let much more development be on Wesnoth itself, and not fixing engine bugs and adding engine features. Trying (and failing) to add OpenGL/hardware acceleration is what finally pushed Vultraz to attempt 2.0 on another 20190504 18:56:12<+wesdiscordbot> engine, which happened to be Godot. There was also an earlier "wesnoth2" concept which would have moved Wesnoth to the Anura engine, but that foundered. 20190504 18:56:38<+wesdiscordbot> Tolkien's world is a great one, no doubt 20190504 18:56:48<+wesdiscordbot> oh I see 20190504 18:56:49<+wesdiscordbot> but copying it for the hundreth time is pointless 20190504 18:56:53<+wesdiscordbot> so it was less "let's not use C++" and more "let's not maintain our own engine anymore" 20190504 18:57:26<+wesdiscordbot> So, is the goal of Wesnoth 2 to continue focusing on the kingdom of Wesnoth specifically? 20190504 18:57:34<+wesdiscordbot> Rather "let's not keep reinventing the wheel in 2010" 20190504 18:57:46<+wesdiscordbot> I had the impression it used opengl from the start since sdl has had support for it for as far as I remember, but then again it's a 2d game so probably there was no need. 20190504 18:57:51<+wesdiscordbot> Because I feel like the innate flexibility of the game engine should allow it to tell stories about an entire world. 20190504 18:58:03<+wesdiscordbot> Godot also allows using C++ to add functionality, so we're almost certainly going to need a MySQL module in C++, for example. 20190504 18:58:10<+wesdiscordbot> writing a good campaign takes time 20190504 18:58:21<+wesdiscordbot> we're focusing on quality over quantity at first 20190504 18:58:44<+wesdiscordbot> and no, wesnoth has always used software rendering, including now. 20190504 18:58:59<+wesdiscordbot> @Technomancer Since the dawn of Wesnoth we've used SDL's software renderer. Since SDL 2.0/Wesnoth 1.14 I believe it may use D3D/GLX under certain circumstances but that's an implementation detail that provides no benefit to us and we're ultimately still limited by the performance and technical constraints of software rendering 20190504 18:59:18<+wesdiscordbot> I must read the code then. Thanks for all the info. 20190504 18:59:18-!- aeth_ [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has joined #wesnoth 20190504 18:59:24<+wesdiscordbot> (One interesting side-effect is that we can't have the Stream overlay on Windows) 20190504 18:59:37<+wesdiscordbot> I sort of wish I could pass through my lack of python skills 20190504 19:00:02<+wesdiscordbot> python was really annoying to learn for me too ~_~ 20190504 19:00:11-!- aeth [~Michael@wesnoth/umc-dev/developer/aethaeryn] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20190504 19:00:27<+wesdiscordbot> I can't even code a simple visual novel in RenPy 20190504 19:00:32<+wesdiscordbot> it's that bad for me 20190504 19:01:25<+wesdiscordbot> I was in a computer vision class this semester, so luckily the prof. and GSIs gave us starter code 20190504 19:01:46<+wesdiscordbot> but I would've been doomed without that :run: 20190504 19:02:48<+wesdiscordbot> I walked out of a class simply because it was given in Python 😂 I knew I would fail it just because of the syntax aspect of it 20190504 19:02:59-!- aeth_ is now known as aeth 20190504 19:03:11<+wesdiscordbot> I’ve been trying to learn c++ but not very successful 😅 20190504 19:04:47<+wesdiscordbot> when trying a new programming language, usually I get an O Reilly book, or check Derek Banas' videos, there is also a very good website I used when I started learning it called cplusplus.com 20190504 19:05:21<+wesdiscordbot> IIRC cplusplus.com mostly copies from other sources 👀 20190504 19:05:31<+wesdiscordbot> then again there are also a few other books, Stroustrup himself published some books 20190504 19:06:21<+wesdiscordbot> Hm I've just been reading online stuff maybe i should get a book 20190504 19:06:22<+wesdiscordbot> That I have never noticed, then again it's been a while since last I used it 20190504 19:06:57<+wesdiscordbot> personally I like learning from a book the most, because the author usually explains in more detail the language 20190504 19:06:58<+wesdiscordbot> stroustrup's books I liked the most 20190504 19:07:28<+wesdiscordbot> I copy code from stackoverflow 👀 20190504 19:07:44<+wesdiscordbot> well me too 20190504 19:07:53<+wesdiscordbot> but mostly to speed up typing 😛 20190504 19:08:10<+wesdiscordbot> @Yumi no one does that. EVER. 20190504 19:08:27<+wesdiscordbot> oh noes 😣 20190504 19:08:36<+wesdiscordbot> 😂 20190504 19:08:49<+wesdiscordbot> I follow a rule of fully understanding the code before I integrate it into something 20190504 19:09:21<+wesdiscordbot> I've copied and pasted code without understanding it before, but my prof doesn't need to know that 👀 20190504 19:09:22<+wesdiscordbot> because copying from a source in itself is not bad, what's bad is not understanding what the code does in detail 20190504 19:09:32<+wesdiscordbot> stupid python 20190504 19:09:38<+wesdiscordbot> I do take inspiration from SO rather than copy-pasting code blindly 20190504 19:10:23<+wesdiscordbot> (And other sites.) Except for very specific cases where the code is actually meant to be a blackbox hack 20190504 19:10:33<+wesdiscordbot> copy-paste can be good start if you understand what you're doing 20190504 19:10:40<+wesdiscordbot> can later fix it to your needs 20190504 19:10:49<+wesdiscordbot> might be faster than starting from ground up 😛 20190504 19:11:13<+wesdiscordbot> coding is hard 20190504 19:11:26<+wesdiscordbot> I"ll miss a pair of parentheses and python will be like 20190504 19:11:32<+wesdiscordbot> "WTF I DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS TYPE ANYMORE" 20190504 19:11:48<+wesdiscordbot> and I'm like numpy, do you really really really need this to be a tuple 20190504 19:11:51<+wesdiscordbot> >_> 20190504 19:11:56<+wesdiscordbot> copy pasting without understanding the code is akin to trying to replicate a part of a blueprint from someone else, and then trying to build a house 20190504 19:29:17< Ravana> python has type annotations now 20190504 19:29:39< Ravana> but I prefer java 20190504 19:32:57-!- Blukunfando [~bkf@89.131.156.191] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20190504 19:43:30-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87.static.drei.at] has joined #wesnoth 20190504 19:43:43<+wesdiscordbot> I do wish java had tuples though 20190504 19:46:15< Ravana> there is Pair<> 20190504 19:47:00< Ravana> and Triple<> 20190504 19:47:10< Ravana> for anything more you really should name the values 20190504 19:53:37<+wesdiscordbot> kotlin is preferred over java these days I have heard 20190504 19:54:04<+wesdiscordbot> but I can't tell. I just followed some tutorials to understand it a bit 20190504 19:54:15< Ravana> yes, we switch to kotlin for new projects 20190504 19:54:26< Ravana> but so far I have only worked on older ones 20190504 19:56:21<+wesdiscordbot> game wise, wose lore book in the underground channels scenario, 'A heir to the throne' is randomly generated in the scenario? 20190504 19:56:29<+wesdiscordbot> can't find it, lol 20190504 20:04:17< celmin|sleep> [May 04@2:01:10pm] wesdiscordbot: Rough, uneven, prone to large tilts in angle, and a lot of the time, yes jagged 20190504 20:04:18< celmin|sleep> Well I think jagged would be represented as rough cave, which IIRC is a bit different mechanically in the game? 20190504 20:04:20< celmin|sleep> [May 04@1:56:57pm] wesdiscordbot: And I don't get why the movement cost for flat is only 2. Like, that makes it barely an obstacle. 20190504 20:04:21< celmin|sleep> TBH, that confuses me too. I'd guess it's some sort of MP balance thing, but I dunno. 20190504 20:04:23< celmin|sleep> (About the sharks not being able to breathe, that's if they stop moving, I don't think it was anything about swimming upside down.) 20190504 20:04:24< celmin|sleep> [May 04@2:16:53pm] wesdiscordbot: Do dwarves have inner stone? Or would that be trolls? 20190504 20:04:26< celmin|sleep> Yeah, that would be trolls. 20190504 20:04:27< celmin|sleep> [May 04@2:17:46pm] wesdiscordbot: Given the writing of the lore, Orcs seem to have inner poison. 20190504 20:04:29< celmin|sleep> Haha, that would be hilarious, but uh... no. I think humans and dwarves (like humans) probably don't have inner anything. 20190504 20:04:30< celmin|sleep> [May 04@2:19:30pm] wesdiscordbot: Like, what are the gods like, where did the races come from, that sort of thing. 20190504 20:04:32< celmin|sleep> Pretty sure there are no gods; their religion, if they have any, is probably more of an animistic or ancestor-worship thing. 20190504 20:04:33< celmin|sleep> [May 04@2:20:12pm] wesdiscordbot: They have no females and bud like fungus out of the ground. 20190504 20:04:35< celmin|sleep> Was that about orcs? They definitely do have females tho. There's no female units, sure, but female orcs are implied by the unit descriptions. 20190504 20:04:37< celmin|sleep> [May 04@2:26:19pm] wesdiscordbot: Don't Tolkien orcs spawn in a pit like fucking tadpoles or sea monkeys or something? 20190504 20:04:38< celmin|sleep> That's the Uruk-hai, I think real Tolkien orcs reproduce normally. That said, it's a long time since I read the Silmarillion so I could be wrong. I do kinda agree on the racism of the orc descriptions BTW, though IIRC it was improved a little recently. 20190504 20:04:40< celmin|sleep> [May 04@2:32:39pm] wesdiscordbot: for real though it's crazy to suggest that orcs are some kind of allegory for nonwhites, please do not do this 20190504 20:04:41< celmin|sleep> IMO it's not in the slightest bit crazy. 20190504 20:04:42< celmin|sleep> [May 04@2:33:09pm] wesdiscordbot: Fantasy racism is still real racism, and it encourages your audience to adopt a racist mindset within that fantasy setting, which makes it easier for them to adopt such attitudes once they leave your fantasy world. 20190504 20:04:44< celmin|sleep> This. Thank you. 20190504 20:04:45< celmin|sleep> [May 04@2:34:02pm] wesdiscordbot: "Always chaotic evil" is a cop-out against figuring out how to write actual characters with motivations for conflict. 20190504 20:04:47< celmin|sleep> This too. 20190504 20:04:48< celmin|sleep> [May 04@2:35:23pm] wesdiscordbot: but we're going to start handling things differently in 2.0 20190504 20:04:50< celmin|sleep> That doesn't instill confidence in me at all... I'd far prefer to see it addressed in 1.15.0 rather than waiting for a nebulous 2.0. 20190504 20:04:51< celmin|sleep> [May 04@2:37:57pm] wesdiscordbot: I hate people injecting their dumb politics into fantasy worlds, which is literally the opposite of hating stories 20190504 20:04:51< celmin|sleep> No, that's literally hating stories. Stories and politics are two sides of the same thing. 20190504 20:06:29<+wesdiscordbot> celmin is sleeptalking 😂 20190504 20:07:35<+wesdiscordbot> I'd love to do things for 1.15, but not that much time (esp for free), and not that easy when everyone keeps disagreeing 20190504 20:07:39<+wesdiscordbot> that's why I said 2.0 20190504 20:07:58<+wesdiscordbot> I've done what I can for TSG and DiD (and that tiny bit of stuff for THoT) 20190504 20:10:10< celmin|sleep> [May 04@2:58:03pm] wesdiscordbot: Godot also allows using C++ to add functionality, so we're almost certainly going to need a MySQL module in C++, for example. 20190504 20:10:11< celmin|sleep> ...wait what? Why do you meed MySQL for Wesnoth? o.O 20190504 20:10:21-!- celmin|sleep is now known as celticminstrel 20190504 20:10:41< celticminstrel> It's not like disagreements will end just because it's a new engine, you know... 20190504 20:14:00<+wesdiscordbot> so far it seems like there's going to be less over frivolous things 20190504 20:15:20<+wesdiscordbot> celticminstrel 20190504 20:16:26<+wesdiscordbot> [May 04@2:33:09pm] wesdiscordbot: Fantasy racism is still real racism, and it encourages your audience to adopt a racist mindset within that fantasy setting, which makes it easier for them to adopt such attitudes once they leave your fantasy world. I will disagree with that, I think it leads to deeper understanding of racism and how people feel. If people dont understand feelings of others how can 20190504 20:16:27<+wesdiscordbot> they relate to them? 20190504 20:16:51<+wesdiscordbot> I'm going to be very specific here and tell you all to stop trying to resurrect dead-ended discussions. 20190504 20:17:02<+wesdiscordbot> This applies to you especially, celticminstrel. 20190504 20:17:30< celticminstrel> I don't even know what Rory is saying because there's no boundary between the quote and his words, so I couldn't respond even if I wanted to. 20190504 20:17:52-!- mode/#wesnoth [+o ShikadiQueen] by ChanServ 20190504 20:17:53-!- celticminstrel was kicked from #wesnoth by ShikadiQueen [celticminstrel] 20190504 20:17:59-!- mode/#wesnoth [-o ShikadiQueen] by ChanServ 20190504 20:18:01-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has joined #wesnoth 20190504 20:18:28<+wesdiscordbot> Do me a favour (which I am asking you as a moderator) and stop trying to force your opinion into every situation you come across. 20190504 20:18:57<+wesdiscordbot> I am not his. Her. 20190504 20:19:08< celticminstrel> Ah, sorry. 20190504 20:19:27<+wesdiscordbot> No problem. 20190504 20:20:09<+wesdiscordbot> I see a controversy. should i bother scrolling through it? 20190504 20:20:18< celticminstrel> Prolly not XD 20190504 20:20:41<+wesdiscordbot> There's no controversy, you can go about your regular business instead 20190504 20:30:41<+wesdiscordbot> !clear 40 20190504 20:30:42<+wesdiscordbot> :CHECK6: I have deleted 40 messages! 20190504 20:33:54<+wesdiscordbot> @Technomancer There wasn't a book back when I played that secnario, but it seems like it's supposed to spawn at 1,1 based on specific conditions 20190504 20:34:33<+wesdiscordbot> Namely defeat the undead after meeting the wose 20190504 20:41:19<+wesdiscordbot> new addition I see 20190504 20:41:41<+wesdiscordbot> well I didn't get dialogues when I approach the sylph so I guess that could be too 20190504 20:41:45<+wesdiscordbot> I am on 1.12 20190504 20:41:49< celticminstrel> o.o 20190504 20:41:50<+wesdiscordbot> thanks 20190504 21:29:18<+wesdiscordbot> Just wondering, is there a list of units that need portraits somewhere? 20190504 22:49:43< celticminstrel> Probably. 20190504 22:50:04< celticminstrel> I seem to vaguely recall seeing such a list of the forums, but I think that one was out of date. 20190504 22:50:10< celticminstrel> on not of --- Log closed Sun May 05 00:00:46 2019