--- Log opened Sun Jun 16 00:00:52 2019 20190616 00:14:47-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20190616 00:17:47-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20190616 01:46:59< irker927> wesnoth/wesnoth:master josteph b597c0a23b Make it possible to use the "unit descri AppVeyor: All builds passed 20190616 04:26:07< irker927> wesnoth/wesnoth:1.14 Severin Glöckner 72f9b49b77 ANL: using second portrait for flavor AppVeyor: All builds passed 20190616 04:53:39-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has quit [Quit: And lo! The computer falls into a deep sleep, to awake again some other day!] 20190616 05:52:15< irker927> wesnoth/wesnoth:master Severin Glöckner 2c06fb587e ANL: using second portrait for flavor AppVeyor: All builds passed 20190616 06:39:04-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20190616 08:52:37-!- irker927 [~irker@wesnoth/umc-dev/bot/shikadibot] has quit [Quit: transmission timeout] 20190616 09:49:48-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20190616 11:01:27-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20190616 11:01:56-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20190616 11:04:12-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20190616 11:04:37-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20190616 11:15:39-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20190616 11:16:57-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20190616 11:30:40-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20190616 12:20:21-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20190616 15:26:24-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20190616 15:37:03-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20190616 15:54:35-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20190616 15:54:51-!- wedge009 [~Thunderbi@60-241-236-92.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20190616 15:56:22-!- wedge009 [~Thunderbi@60-241-236-92.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20190616 16:06:13-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20190616 16:58:00-!- nurupo [~nurupo.ga@unaffiliated/nurupo] has quit [Quit: nurupo.ga] 20190616 16:58:24-!- nurupo [~nurupo.ga@unaffiliated/nurupo] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20190616 17:32:28-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20190616 18:11:55<+wesdiscordbot> On EI S3 the player has 20% of losing the scenario before turn 1 ends. 20190616 18:12:12<+wesdiscordbot> The only reason the player wins is that there's a FORCE_CHANCE_TO_HIT in there... 20190616 18:13:15<+wesdiscordbot> Can we consider this a bug? 20190616 18:19:02<+wesdiscordbot> (assuming Dacyn is lvl2 and Gweddry lvl1, there's 85% that the Adept survives and 24% that he hits 4 out of 4 against Dacyn. 85%*24% = 20%) 20190616 18:29:23-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20190616 18:58:42< celticminstrel> Losing on turn 1 does sound pretty bad... 20190616 20:47:35< zookeeper> there's a 85% that the adept survives what? 20190616 20:47:50<+wesdiscordbot> melee attack by lvl1 Gweddry and ranged attack by lvl2 Dacyn 20190616 20:48:44< zookeeper> and how many % of the time does that actually happen? :p 20190616 20:50:00<+wesdiscordbot> zookeeper, I played on HARD and at the end of S2 I had Gweddry at lvl1, 22/32XP 20190616 20:50:47<+wesdiscordbot> Besides, if Gweddry is lvl2, the percentages are still high, it's 57.4% that the Adept survives 20190616 20:51:15< zookeeper> so does the adept ever survive such an attack or not? you're saying the player wins, and you're saying the adept survives sometimes. 20190616 20:52:26<+wesdiscordbot> two separate situations 20190616 20:52:40<+wesdiscordbot> there's a FORCE_CHANCE_TO_HIT that makes the play hit 100% on the adept 20190616 20:52:57<+wesdiscordbot> so if the player attacks the adept on side 1 turn 1, the adept will die there and then 20190616 20:53:04<+wesdiscordbot> however, the player doesn't know about the FORCE_CTH 20190616 20:53:24<+wesdiscordbot> the 85%/57% figures are "as far as the player knows" 20190616 20:53:57< celticminstrel> (What if you don't attack on side 1 turn 1) 20190616 20:54:40< celticminstrel> But if the 20% chance of losing is only apparent chance and it's actually not possible to lose, I wouldn't consider it a bug. 20190616 20:54:51< zookeeper> sure. so what do you propose is the bug/problem? that the situation appears too luck-based to the player which might lead them to make a poor decision when trying to play it safe? 20190616 20:55:05<+wesdiscordbot> celmin, if you don't attack, then the adept will recruit 20190616 20:55:15<+wesdiscordbot> the player can't recruit 20190616 20:55:40<+wesdiscordbot> also the condition of the FORCE_CTH is "Adept on keep" so it's not guaranteed to be true on later turns of the player 20190616 20:55:45< celticminstrel> Okay, so attacking the adept is pretty much your only option anyway. 20190616 20:55:51<+wesdiscordbot> right. 20190616 20:56:01< celticminstrel> But in theory someone could decide to run away instead. 20190616 20:56:07< celticminstrel> And then they would lose. 20190616 20:56:09<+wesdiscordbot> zookeeper, the scenario effectively forces the player to take a 20% risk of losing the scenario 20190616 20:56:16< celticminstrel> But then that would be because they made a bad decision? 20190616 20:56:27<+wesdiscordbot> Dacyn dying is a campaign lose condition 20190616 20:56:34< celticminstrel> Is there dialogue encouraging them to attack? 20190616 20:56:53<+wesdiscordbot> there's dialog saying they should take the adept's keep 20190616 20:56:57<+wesdiscordbot> and recruit there 20190616 20:56:59< celticminstrel> So yes... 20190616 20:57:15<+wesdiscordbot> the dialog doesn't say "let's bet everything on killing this adept" 20190616 20:57:17< zookeeper> yeah, the reason why i don't consider the "forced 20% chance of apparent failure" a problem is that it's still clearly the best choice the player can make, no? 20190616 20:57:22<+wesdiscordbot> "risk our lives because we have no other choice" 20190616 20:57:42< celticminstrel> That said this sounds like a very weird situation in general. 20190616 20:57:58<+wesdiscordbot> zookeeper, It's the best decision, yes... 20190616 20:58:10< celticminstrel> The adept is logically not supposed to recruit (because you're supposed to kill him) yet he will if given the chance... 20190616 20:58:19<+wesdiscordbot> but when I'm put in that spot I'd be looking for a less risky option 20190616 20:58:33<+wesdiscordbot> celmin, I think that's right - he has a recruit list - but didn't test this 20190616 20:59:06< celticminstrel> In that situation, if he's holding a keep, I'd actually expect him to start with a few units, and of course to balance that out you'd need to have Dacyn start with a few units too (surely there are loyals in that campaign?). 20190616 20:59:08<+wesdiscordbot> yeah, he recruits 20190616 20:59:16<+wesdiscordbot> none yet 20190616 20:59:30< zookeeper> it should be clear that running away cannot work, but i'm open to the idea that someone might legitimately try to bait the adept out of the castle or something and then those WC's giving them a real chance of failure. however, on easy at worst the adept will still recruit only one WC, on normal they can get 2. 20190616 20:59:45<+wesdiscordbot> celmin, but you can do what HttT S6 does, and recall some high level unit, or create a new one for free 20190616 21:00:17< celticminstrel> Hm? 20190616 21:00:18< celticminstrel> I don't remember what HTTT did... 20190616 21:00:26<+wesdiscordbot> what I just said 20190616 21:00:31<+wesdiscordbot> httt recalls the highest level unit you have 20190616 21:00:33< celticminstrel> Is it the one where you start with an encampment that disappears on the next turn? 20190616 21:00:35<+wesdiscordbot> if you don't have any, it gives you an Elf Fighter 20190616 21:00:43<+wesdiscordbot> no, it's Elensefar 20190616 21:00:55< celticminstrel> Oh, you mean the code auto-recalls a semi-random unit for you. 20190616 21:00:56< zookeeper> i think we only really need to consider easy difficulty here, so assuming the player sits out the first turn and the adept gets one WC, is it still possible to fail because of the RNG, assuming you attack the adept on turn 2? 20190616 21:01:07<+wesdiscordbot> zookeeper, given that Gweddry has no keep, the Adept can just defend 20190616 21:01:16<+wesdiscordbot> Gweddry must attack or he'll be pincered 20190616 21:01:23<+wesdiscordbot> celmin, yeah 20190616 21:01:38<+wesdiscordbot> zookeeper, depends on if the adept is on the keep or not 20190616 21:02:28<+wesdiscordbot> the adept won't be on the keep 20190616 21:02:32<+wesdiscordbot> he'll take the village 20190616 21:02:49<+wesdiscordbot> so 60% defense, and on MEDIUM Dacyn can't reach 20190616 21:03:03< zookeeper> @josteph, and it's a really poor move to try to bait the adept out of the castle so that it can block gweddry from the keep 20190616 21:04:03<+wesdiscordbot> (sorry, Dacyn could reach if he moved on turn 1) 20190616 21:04:22<+wesdiscordbot> zookeeper, if not for the FORCE_CTH, the Adept should've stayed on the keep hex 20190616 21:04:28<+wesdiscordbot> to prevent Gweddry from recruiting on turn 2 20190616 21:04:34< zookeeper> the legit choices should be to either attack immediately, or to try to get the adept to move off the keep. if you do the latter, then you would naturally try to do it so that gweddry can reach the keep on turn 2, no? 20190616 21:05:12<+wesdiscordbot> Gwed needs to be within range of the Adept 20190616 21:05:23<+wesdiscordbot> because Dacyn needs 3/3 hits to kill the adept 20190616 21:05:32<+wesdiscordbot> so Gwed needs to be able to back up if Dacyn misses one or two hits 20190616 21:05:55<+wesdiscordbot> oh, it's worse 20190616 21:06:01<+wesdiscordbot> the Adept has arcane resistance 20190616 21:06:02 * celticminstrel is confused about who Gweddry and Dacyn are exactly... 20190616 21:06:07<+wesdiscordbot> Dacyn can't kill the adept by himself even at daytime 20190616 21:06:22<+wesdiscordbot> celmin, Dacyn = White Mage , Gweddry = Sergeant 20190616 21:06:31<+wesdiscordbot> protagonists of EI 20190616 21:06:33< celticminstrel> So you start with two units? 20190616 21:06:37< celticminstrel> Okay. 20190616 21:06:39<+wesdiscordbot> yes, two units and no keep 20190616 21:06:47< celticminstrel> I just assumed it would be one leader unit. 20190616 21:06:54< celticminstrel> I should probably play EI one day. >_> 20190616 21:07:23<+wesdiscordbot> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/259976436490829825/589923998167597063/2019-06-16-210708_479x586_scrot.png 20190616 21:08:35<+wesdiscordbot> zookeeper, Maybe we just need some more dialog? 20190616 21:08:48<+wesdiscordbot> Encouraging the player to attack at once despite the risks 20190616 21:11:03< zookeeper> well, sure, if you want to change "This adept is weak — we may be able to take his fort" into "This adept is weak — we need to attack at once and take his fort quickly" then that doesn't sound bad. 20190616 21:11:44< zookeeper> although i'm still unsure what specific reasonable player action you're worried about 20190616 21:13:08<+wesdiscordbot> as a player I don't like being put in the position of having to take a 20% risk of failing the entire campaign 20190616 21:13:33< celticminstrel> What about giving the adept a negative trait? 20190616 21:13:35<+wesdiscordbot> the dialog doesn't suggest that Dacyn should risk his life to kill this one adept 20190616 21:13:58< celticminstrel> Either "aged" or one of the goblin traits. 20190616 21:14:04<+wesdiscordbot> "brittle"? 20190616 21:14:07<+wesdiscordbot> make it the opposite of resilient 20190616 21:14:11<+wesdiscordbot> -4HP and -1HP per level 😃 20190616 21:14:11< celticminstrel> Or something custom, sure. 20190616 21:14:24< celticminstrel> I wouldn't call that brittle though, I'd call it frail. 20190616 21:14:31<+wesdiscordbot> adept is supposed to be young, though? 20190616 21:14:33<+wesdiscordbot> yeah, frail 20190616 21:14:48<+wesdiscordbot> adepts in general, I mean 20190616 21:14:55< celticminstrel> Yeah, I do think aged doesn't fit very well, I only named it because it is in fact a negative trait. 20190616 21:15:09<+wesdiscordbot> It was the first negative trait I thought of too 20190616 21:15:44< celticminstrel> Pretty sure there are three goblin ones but I can only recall dim and weak... 20190616 21:16:04< zookeeper> after you reasonably hit the adept with gweddry, dacyn only needs two hits to kill it, so already on turn 1 your CtK is 78%. the chance of dacyn dying on turn 2 (if the adept shoots him and lands both hits before dacyn lands one) would be slim. 20190616 21:16:09<+wesdiscordbot> slow 20190616 21:16:17< celticminstrel> Ah, right. 20190616 21:16:37< celticminstrel> I was thinking, could it be clumsy but I don't recall such a trait existing? 20190616 21:16:55< celticminstrel> Insert comma before "but" 20190616 21:17:28< zookeeper> besides, if you play it extra safe and just hit it in melee with both units, it has 1hp and will presumably (always?) move to the village, at which point you're completely safe without ever having taken a hit. 20190616 21:17:48<+wesdiscordbot> let me try the extra safe 20190616 21:18:54<+wesdiscordbot> that works... but the adept does recruit a WC, so Gweddry can't recruit until turn three 20190616 21:19:02<+wesdiscordbot> because Dacyn is needed to kill the WC 20190616 21:19:20< zookeeper> you don't have to kill the WC 20190616 21:20:01<+wesdiscordbot> you don't have to, but it's the natural choice, to send Dacyn to the WC and Gwed to the adept 20190616 21:20:10<+wesdiscordbot> take no retaliation damage this way 20190616 21:20:20< celticminstrel> You can't recruit first, then go after the adept? 20190616 21:20:30< celticminstrel> I assume Dacyn can't recruit. 20190616 21:20:36<+wesdiscordbot> Oops, you're right 20190616 21:20:50<+wesdiscordbot> so yes you can recruit on turn 2 20190616 21:21:14<+wesdiscordbot> but now there's a small chance that the adept will survive to turn 3 ... 20190616 21:21:25< celticminstrel> How much of a problem is his survival? 20190616 21:21:26<+wesdiscordbot> it's no longer on the keep so your attacks can miss now 20190616 21:21:36< zookeeper> the adept is no danger once it's off the keep, because you have all your recruited units as shields 20190616 21:21:43< celticminstrel> Yeah, exactly? 20190616 21:22:42<+wesdiscordbot> yeah, on T2 you recruit so he'll be dead by end of T3 20190616 21:22:49<+wesdiscordbot> but then you'll start with injured units 20190616 21:23:05<+wesdiscordbot> I'm playing on easy, I don't know how it would affect harder difficulties 20190616 21:25:13< zookeeper> i mean, we could play that scenario as MP and give you, playing as the adept (+ any WC you recruit), 100% CtH and i don't think you could ever kill any unit of mine 20190616 21:25:34< zookeeper> or at least i'd be very surprised if there was a way you could 20190616 21:26:03<+wesdiscordbot> the adept does 8-2 by that point, the WC 6-2 20190616 21:26:32<+wesdiscordbot> that's still enough to kill a mage 20190616 21:26:56<+wesdiscordbot> (and on MEDIUM there would be more WC's) 20190616 21:29:29< zookeeper> well, okay, if you did retreat to the village on turn 1 after i only melee'd you then i guess i might miss all shots after i sent dacyn to finish you off, and then you could kill a mage. but then again, i should have recruited the mage on one of the castle tiles you can't reach. :p 20190616 21:31:05< celticminstrel> I wonder how many people don't realize they can choose which hex they recruit to. 20190616 21:33:00<+wesdiscordbot> zookeeper, yeah. And Dacyn has 97% CTK there 😃 20190616 21:33:21<+wesdiscordbot> (with ranged. 64% in melee) 20190616 21:37:28< zookeeper> i sympathize with the idea that the player might be dismayed by being put in a situation where it seems like they have a realistic chance of failure if the dice rolls poorly, but when the most reasonable course of action can't fail if you play smart and is very unlikely to fail even if you play dumb, it doesn't strike me as much of a problem. 20190616 21:38:11< zookeeper> i mean, at worst the player looks at the situation, thinks it looks a bit unfair, tries to maximize their chances of success and then promptly succeeds 20190616 21:38:44<+wesdiscordbot> when that happens to me, I feel as though I won due to RNG 20190616 21:39:26<+wesdiscordbot> attacking with melee is a good plan, but if it weren't for the FORCE_CTH, it wouldn't have been as effective as it is with it 20190616 21:41:13< zookeeper> yeah, that's why i put the FORCE_CTH there once upon a time :> i bet people did lose the scenario due to bad luck occasionally back then 20190616 21:45:35<+wesdiscordbot> probably 😃 20190616 21:45:47<+wesdiscordbot> so in the end what do you say, leave it as is or change the dialog to encourage attacking the DA ? 20190616 21:50:25< zookeeper> a small dialogue tweak to suggest attacking immediately is fine by me. in fact, i do think gweddry should say they _should_ attack the adept (somewhat similarly to my suggestion earlier) instead of just musing that they "might be able" to take the fort. 20190616 21:56:49<+wesdiscordbot> zookeeper, http://sprunge.us/IryVuy ? 20190616 22:00:11< zookeeper> personally i'd only perform the "we may be able to"->"we should attack him at once" substitution, but sure. 20190616 22:01:56< zookeeper> (actually, just "we should attack at once" (without "him") would work) 20190616 22:01:57<+wesdiscordbot> I didn't think the DA's location could be described as a "fort" in-world 20190616 22:02:06<+wesdiscordbot> I'll remove "him" 20190616 22:02:51<+wesdiscordbot> the change to Dacyn line was because the player wouldn't know, at this point, that even with the melee strategy there's a force_cth in effect 20190616 22:03:26< zookeeper> oh? fort seems a fitting word for... well, wood forts 20190616 22:07:39<+wesdiscordbot> I thought it was just a temporary facility with just the DA there 20190616 22:07:44<+wesdiscordbot> but I'll put "fort" back 20190616 22:08:08<+wesdiscordbot> http://sprunge.us/NYYtOg 20190616 22:08:19< zookeeper> fine by me 20190616 22:09:59<+wesdiscordbot> thanks a lot, zookeeper! 20190616 22:12:33< zookeeper> cool. i'm off to bed now -> 20190616 22:12:41<+wesdiscordbot> good night 20190616 22:12:43-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20190616 22:15:04-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20190616 22:17:00-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 20190616 22:26:15-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has joined #wesnoth-dev 20190616 22:49:19-!- stikonas [~gentoo@wesnoth/translator/stikonas] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] --- Log closed Mon Jun 17 00:00:53 2019