--- Log opened Wed Jun 12 00:00:45 2019 20190612 01:09:49<+wesdiscordbot> @AndrewAlfazy it's not entirely right that it was an unsalvageable mess - it was more like there were some existing deep-rooted design issues (like multiple input subsystems and their interactions with the UI) that I didn't know how to solve. Remember, in terms of actual rendering it did alright (GUI2 for one was I'd say 95% completely converted to work with the new rendering pipeline when I abandoned it) 20190612 01:11:17<+wesdiscordbot> @AndrewAlfazy also at the time (mid-2017) I did not (and still don't, not really) know how to use OGL directly. I was using SDL's Texture API, which is simple to use but offers no essentials like shaders 20190612 01:13:14<+wesdiscordbot> Despite having done significant refactoring at the time, I couldn't figure out how to solve the deeper problems inherent to having had multiple distinct subsystems slapped on top of each other at different times. 20190612 01:13:43<+wesdiscordbot> over the years 20190612 01:14:42<+wesdiscordbot> I determined it would be better to use an existing engine to offload a lot of the maintenance costs on another project 😛 20190612 01:14:49<+wesdiscordbot> Godot was suggested for being open source 20190612 01:14:58<+wesdiscordbot> So far it's proven pretty proposing 20190612 01:15:02<+wesdiscordbot> But it done have some flaws 20190612 01:15:36<+wesdiscordbot> It's sadly not very performant under the hood due to some ghastly historic programming decisions 20190612 01:15:40<+wesdiscordbot> (Go figure!) 20190612 01:15:51<+wesdiscordbot> But at this point, what can we do? 20190612 01:16:40<+wesdiscordbot> Neither Unity (potential licensing complications) or Unreal (3D FPS-focused) would really do for a game like Wesnoth 20190612 01:18:29<+wesdiscordbot> And if we don't have the manpower and expertise to do the massive full-engine refactor the old engine would need.... Godot looks like the best bet 20190612 01:20:32-!- celmin|away is now known as celticminstrel 20190612 02:37:49< celticminstrel> (FTR Unreal could probably totally do it - it does have 2D-focused frameworks. Not saying it's the best choice mind you, but…) 20190612 02:52:07-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has quit [Quit: And lo! The computer falls into a deep sleep, to awake again some other day!] 20190612 03:06:28<+wesdiscordbot> well, if that was possible, why unreal over unity? 20190612 03:48:43-!- ToBeFree [ToBeFree@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 20190612 03:52:19-!- ToBeFree [ToBeFree@wikimedia/ToBeFree] has joined #wesnoth 20190612 05:04:36<+wesdiscordbot> (that is, does Unreal have something in 2D that Unity does not?) 20190612 05:36:12<+wesdiscordbot> Fewer potential licensing complications? 20190612 05:36:38<+wesdiscordbot> Though that's probably not exactly a 2D thing. 20190612 06:02:31<+wesdiscordbot> Unreal is also a proprietary engine, so I think its licensing situation isn't any better. 20190612 07:11:58<+wesdiscordbot> anura? 20190612 07:21:43-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87.static.drei.at] has joined #wesnoth 20190612 07:42:31< galegosimpatico> order of frogs 20190612 08:02:23<+wesdiscordbot> @ai ceased development, sadly 20190612 08:29:48<+wesdiscordbot> @Vultraz wait, so the reason why we don't have OGL port is - "deep" input systems works with the gui (I don't understand that really), why din't you just re-do the UI - Not much knowledge about OGL 20190612 08:30:50<+wesdiscordbot> wait is it the reason for not having Android version? 20190612 08:31:02<+wesdiscordbot> Over the past 12 years, there have been no fewer than 3 attempts to convert the game to use OGL (4 if you count my work into SDL_Texture). None have been successful. 20190612 08:31:46<+wesdiscordbot> We do have an Android version 20190612 08:32:10<+wesdiscordbot> un-official* 20190612 08:33:05<+wesdiscordbot> We never really had the manpower to do an official port. Sorting out the mess with the iOS port was hard enough 20190612 08:33:25<+wesdiscordbot> It doesn't have to do with OGL 20190612 08:34:13<+wesdiscordbot> As for input, yet, optimally the input system would have been completely refactored into something more managable 20190612 08:34:20<+wesdiscordbot> But I couldn't do it 20190612 08:35:43<+wesdiscordbot> And that was only one of the problems 20190612 08:36:25<+wesdiscordbot> Honestly, the game kinda sucks on iOS and Android right now 20190612 08:36:38<+wesdiscordbot> slow? 20190612 08:37:53<+wesdiscordbot> Rather bad UI system we spent the last 11 years developing that is inadequate and not designed with mobile in mind, among other issues 20190612 08:38:26<+wesdiscordbot> ah 20190612 08:39:37<+wesdiscordbot> Again, there were some decisions baked into it early on by the dev who originally created it that were just bad 20190612 08:40:02<+wesdiscordbot> lack of relative dimensions, for one. everything is in non-DPI-aware pixel measurements 20190612 08:41:20<+wesdiscordbot> It does not work well on small phone screens 20190612 08:42:01<+wesdiscordbot> Uh... it's largely the opposite. GUI2 does not even allow you to place GUI elements with absolute pixel positions (except if you use spacers). It relies on auto-sized grids through and through. 20190612 08:45:29<+wesdiscordbot> That's the other side of the problem, yes. I meant how stuff like a button will always (unless its text is oversized) be exactly x pixels wide on any sized screen. And if it doesn't find exactly x pixels you get Le Shitty Scrollbar. 20190612 08:45:43<+wesdiscordbot> And if it can't drop a scrollbar it just crashes the game >_< 20190612 08:47:54<+wesdiscordbot> That's why there was a minimum window size within which we were supposed to make sure all UI windows fit 20190612 08:49:14<+wesdiscordbot> This is actually an area where Godot has simplified a lot of things 20190612 08:50:54<+wesdiscordbot> We chose 1080p as the base resolution. Anything higher and the viewport (UI, map, everything) is upscaled cleanly. You get HDPI UI elements with no effort and the map is scaled up too (NN) 20190612 09:21:54-!- Soo_Slow [Soo_Slow@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/sooslow/x-31376162] has joined #wesnoth 20190612 09:43:12<+wesdiscordbot> honestly there's nothing complicated about direct opengl. You just feed it list of vertices and get image in the framebuffer 20190612 09:43:46<+wesdiscordbot> be sure to learn how to do it, without it you won't see whole picture 20190612 09:44:00<+wesdiscordbot> and won't have full understanding of nature of shaders 20190612 09:47:18<+wesdiscordbot> the only annoying part of opengl is insane amount of state you could mutate 20190612 09:47:33<+wesdiscordbot> really getting in the way of making composable code 20190612 09:47:51<+wesdiscordbot> so cool that vulkan is a lot better at it 20190612 09:48:31<+wesdiscordbot> like each logically separate code part can have own command buffer and pipelines and they won't affect each other at all 20190612 09:55:41<+wesdiscordbot> I 20190612 09:56:29<+wesdiscordbot> I'm not liking the idea of using a game engine for simple graphics like that... 20190612 10:00:56< Soliton> the good thing is that wesnoth is an open source game were people can work on whatever they like. so there are people that work on the godot rewrite and people that continue to work on the original. you can just wait and see what is more successful in the long run or of course get involved in the parts you care about. 20190612 10:06:07<+wesdiscordbot> yeah, that what I was thinking about writing OpenGL port my self and see how it goes (I don't have much time those days but I'll try)... I mean it shouldn't be harder than writing some small game engines... 20190612 10:13:13< Soliton> if you want to work on moving wesnoth to opengl you could look at the opengl branch and talk to jyrkive. 20190612 10:21:10-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87.static.drei.at] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20190612 10:23:53<+wesdiscordbot> You can work on any fork you like, but there will always be an official version. 20190612 11:12:58-!- Necrosporus [~Necrospor@unaffiliated/necrosporus] has joined #wesnoth 20190612 11:29:59-!- Haudegen [~quassel@212-186-77-29.static.upcbusiness.at] has joined #wesnoth 20190612 12:24:25-!- celticminstrel [~celmin@unaffiliated/celticminstrel] has joined #wesnoth 20190612 12:52:29-!- celticminstrel is now known as celmin|away 20190612 13:18:59-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has joined #wesnoth 20190612 14:32:13-!- Soo_Slow [Soo_Slow@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/sooslow/x-31376162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20190612 15:42:50-!- psymin [~psymin@69.146.8.222] has joined #wesnoth 20190612 15:43:28-!- Haudegen [~quassel@212-186-77-29.static.upcbusiness.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20190612 16:09:33-!- Soo_Slow [Soo_Slow@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/sooslow/x-31376162] has joined #wesnoth 20190612 16:56:00-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87.static.drei.at] has joined #wesnoth 20190612 18:22:18-!- claymore [~claymore@unaffiliated/claymore] has joined #wesnoth 20190612 18:50:16-!- claymore [~claymore@unaffiliated/claymore] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20190612 20:36:24-!- psymin [~psymin@69.146.8.222] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20190612 21:06:10<+wesdiscordbot> but when will the official version take bitcoin donations 20190612 21:06:25<+wesdiscordbot> 😉 20190612 21:16:30<+wesdiscordbot> there's https://liberapay.com/Wesnoth, I don't know if there's a way to pay bitcoin to wesnoth 20190612 21:26:11<+wesdiscordbot> BITCOIN!! ❤️❤️❤️🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿🐜😊 20190612 21:26:23<+wesdiscordbot> I love bitcoin XD 20190612 21:29:38-!- zookeeper [~lmsnie@wesnoth/developer/zookeeper] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20190612 22:07:37-!- Soo_Slow [Soo_Slow@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/sooslow/x-31376162] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20190612 22:24:49<+wesdiscordbot> I've been trying to get them to accept it lol 20190612 22:25:14<+wesdiscordbot> in a mildly self-serving way since I run a website that teaches people about cryptocurrencies and it would be cool if people ended up using my referral links, but 20190612 22:25:22<+wesdiscordbot> mainly because this kind of adoption is good for basically everybody 20190612 22:25:34<+wesdiscordbot> since if wesnoth accepted btc, enthusiasts like myself would be more likely to donate 20190612 22:46:42-!- Haudegen [~quassel@178.115.237.87.static.drei.at] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 20190612 23:52:53-!- celmin|away is now known as celticminstrel --- Log closed Thu Jun 13 00:00:02 2019