Sceptre of Life, version 0.12.1

Discussion and development of scenarios and campaigns for the game.

Moderator: Forum Moderators

Post Reply
lastjuan
Posts: 47
Joined: November 9th, 2008, 2:50 pm

Re: Sceptre of Life, version 0.8.8

Post by lastjuan »

[quote]Mm, I have an idea, though; maybe I'll recall him a couple turns in (if the player hasn't already), and throw in some dialogue about nobody waking him up, or something. I'll have to think about it; what do you think?/quote]

I think that should work flawlessly. I'm sorry that it took some long to answer, it had been a hectic week around here. I just updated the campgain to the 0.8.7 version and an old bug has resurfaced: there is no Burin, no Eriad available. Both Aeryn Elrial has returned to their original state: Aeryn is a level 1 and Elrial is a Ranger again :( :(
SOL-Error.jpg
The big trouble is that I can't recruit so it's a bit difficult to beat this scenario... :P :P
opensourcejunkie
Posts: 547
Joined: August 11th, 2008, 3:19 pm

Re: Sceptre of Life, version 0.8.8

Post by opensourcejunkie »

sorry to hear your week's so busy; I definitely know what "hectic"'s like :-/.
lastjuan wrote:I just updated the campgain to the 0.8.7 version and an old bug has resurfaced: there is no Burin, no Eriad available. Both Aeryn Elrial has returned to their original state: Aeryn is a level 1 and Elrial is a Ranger again :( :(
Oh, yeah, sorry about that. I changed the underlying structure of the campaign (how units are stored, etc.) while I was updating it, so your old saves probably won't work on the last few scenarios. I've included an updated savepack that should work, so you don't have to go playing through the whole thing again. Sorry, only one of the loyal fighters turned into a captain ;-).

I'll put a fix in on scenario 4 in the next release. And technically you should probably have 1.8.8; I just forgot to update the pbl file.

Thanks for playing!
--OSJ

P.S. let me know if you can beat scenario 8 now
Attachments
savepack_0_8_8.zip
(135.33 KiB) Downloaded 272 times
what if the Bible's claims about Christ depicted accurate, verifiable history? given some research, you might be surprised at the evidence...
Jacobian
Posts: 4
Joined: February 5th, 2009, 10:06 pm

Re: Sceptre of Life, version 0.8.8

Post by Jacobian »

In version 0.8.0:

The steadfast ability doubles your resistances (when defending) up to a maximum of 50% resistance. Aeryn has 0% resistances to everything except arcane damage. The orcs don't have mages and the saurian mages deal magical cold damage. This means that the steadfast advancement has no effect on Aeryn. It just uses up his experience points... We might as well not have it. (Or perhaps he could be given some non-zero resistances.)

He also has two instances of the cure ability. Another minor detail: the names of his attacks are capitalized ("Punch"), while all other units have lowercase attacks ("punch").

(And magical fists? I wish they dealt regular impact damage instead... It doesn't make much difference either way, but with so many special traits and abilities--magic, poison, regeneration, cure, heal+8, and special AMLA advancements--it somehow feels like he's not a real unit. I'd prefer it if his fists did ordinary damage. Or perhaps there could be an explanation of how they came to be magical and deal so much damage? He's a healer and he's using his bare hands, but he's dealing more damage than some combat units with swords.)

Now, I'm the kind of player who likes to build up an army over time. I like to strategize about the choice of units, and I enjoy watching them level up over time...

So it was frustrating for me to just get a working army under one player, and then have to switch over to a new leader with no units. If I'm going to have to continually start over, I'd at least like to have a few scenarios where I can enjoy my units first. Or... there should be kind of assurance that I'll eventually be able to play them again... someday.

The absolute most frustrating part was when my army under Aeryn's brother got assigned to an AI, who lead my units into a massacre. The AI does not cycle units back for healing, and it killed off some of my units before I could reach them with Aeryn's army to save them. Aeryn's starting position was on the opposite side of the map, so he had to walk across the entire width of the map before he could do anything to help. During those first couple of turns, my high level uniits under the AI obliterated the saurian forces, and some were lost in the process. By the time Aeryn arrived, he only had to kill a single unit (the saurian leader). It was simply an exercise in frustration as I watched helplessly.

Then, all of my non-elvish units were taken away with Aeryn's brother! Even the ones that I had advanced from peasants under Aeryn. They owe no loyalty to his brother. Why would they leave now? And now I'm back to square one again, after having finally developed a nice army for Aeryn.

Now that my first two armies are gone, I can build up a third new army of elves... but at this point I'm wondering if I'll even be able to keep them once Elrial's brother leaves.

And that's another thing that annoys me: Elrial was alive when the prophesy was made, wasn't she? That makes her at least fifty-some years old by now, and may very well be older than that. I haven't finished the campaign, but it looks like Elrial and Aeryn are attracted to each other... and doesn't that seem a little odd to anyone? The little brother dating a 50+ year old woman? And she's an elf: What would the elves think about one of the elvish kind dating a human? What would her *brother* think? He ought to have an opinion about it: He's supposed to be protective of her.

And... she has let him be over-protective of her for forty years? She's a grown woman, old enough to be a grandmother if she were human, and she's still letting her big brother boss her around? That doesn't seem right to me.

Maybe she could be excluded from the flash-back... and really *be* a young woman who was born recently. She could be a half-elf like her sister, and then it would be okay to be interested in a brave young doctor. But I haven't finished the campaign, so maybe I'm way off base that they're even interested in each other.

Another thing: I think the older messenger sister would have been more offended at the way the king insulted her upon her arrival and then killed her. But she calls the greeting "pleasant" and departs on good terms after she is resurrected. The king left her dead for forty years and almost killed her loved ones as well. Shouldn't he be her mortal enemy by now??

And how would the rest of the elvish alliance react to seeing their ambassador killed on a courtesy mission?

And the king had her buried *there* just so she could get resurrected later? So they just put her in a coffin a left it a few feet from the castle all these years?

I would have thought elves would come to take her home, or perhaps the humans would dispose of her body. If that's the case, perhaps the king could be visiting her at a cemetery near the castle when she climbs out of her sarcophagus? (Maybe that was the intention?) If so, perhaps we could have more coffins nearby, on a grassland, with a single village nearby. I think there is actually one village that looks something like a church that could be used.

I also think the dialogue for the king could be improved. A real leader who acts like this king wouldn't stay a king for very long, in my opinion. Perhaps he could be made more decisive, more diplomatic, and less quick to jump to conclusions? Just by changing his dialogue a little bit?

While I'm thinking about the king: the river memorial to the king's fallen son is just a warning not to cross the river. Why would anyone put up a memorial like that? I mean, by the time they've put up his memorial, shouldn't the battle be over? So why the useless warning? Unless... you're crossing over into permanent orcish territory? But then why the memorial if you're actually marking a territorial boundary?

Perhaps the memorial could instead say some words about the bravery of the fallen prince, and in the process, reveal the history, since it's important.

Anyway... I don't mean to be so critical. I loved the first scenario. It was very nicely done and added some interesting new strategy as well.

I also realize that nobody has to make *any* scenarios. So: thank you, and I'm sorry for being so critical.
Max
Posts: 1449
Joined: April 13th, 2008, 12:41 am

Re: Sceptre of Life, version 0.8.8

Post by Max »

Jacobian wrote:And that's another thing that annoys me: Elrial was alive when the prophesy was made, wasn't she? That makes her at least fifty-some years old by now, and may very well be older than that. I haven't finished the campaign, but it looks like Elrial and Aeryn are attracted to each other... and doesn't that seem a little odd to anyone? The little brother dating a 50+ year old woman? And she's an elf: What would the elves think about one of the elvish kind dating a human? What would her *brother* think? He ought to have an opinion about it: He's supposed to be protective of her.
i've not heard many complaints about the relationship between Arwen and Aragorn in LOTR. Arwen was well over 2500 years when they married.
User avatar
Turuk
Sithslayer
Posts: 5283
Joined: February 28th, 2007, 8:58 pm
Contact:

Re: Sceptre of Life, version 0.8.8

Post by Turuk »

Some women age well. My last girlfriend was 72, but I swear she did not look a day over 60. *whistles*

No, I think you have to think about the longevity of an elf's life and the fact that 50 for her is not the same as it would be towards a human woman. As to letting her brother be protective of her for so long, that does not always diminish with age. Especially if they had a childhood relationship that focused strongly on the older sibling protecting the younger.
Mainline Maintainer: AOI, DM, NR, TB and THoT.
UMC Maintainer: Forward They Cried, A Few Logs, A Few More Logs, Start of the War, and Battle Against Time
opensourcejunkie
Posts: 547
Joined: August 11th, 2008, 3:19 pm

Re: Sceptre of Life, version 0.8.8

Post by opensourcejunkie »

Actually, Elrial is still relatively young when she met Aeryn. She was fifteen years old when Elianna gave the prophecy to Trent; add twenty years to that, and it puts her at 35. I imagine that Aeryn's in his early twenties, so at most, there's a 15 year difference. Probably of greater significance is the age difference between Eriad and Elianna; she was born in the time of Northern rebirth, putting hundreds of years between the two of them.

Concerning the flashback, however, I use Kitty's shaman portrait to represent Elrial. The shaman looks like a child of preteen years, so it matches the fifteen-year appearance. My difficulty, however, is a technical one; in BfW 1.5, the default portraits for a unit type override the custom portraits, so Kitty's archer portrait is displayed instead of the shaman. Once that bug is fixed, however, Elrial should appear much younger in the flashback.
Jacobian wrote:The steadfast ability doubles your resistances (when defending) up to a maximum of 50% resistance. Aeryn has 0% resistances to everything except arcane damage. The orcs don't have mages and the saurian mages deal magical cold damage. This means that the steadfast advancement has no effect on Aeryn. It just uses up his experience points... We might as well not have it. (Or perhaps he could be given some non-zero resistances.)
very good catch; it's actually on my to-do list to up his resistances for this very reason.
Jacobian wrote:He also has two instances of the cure ability.
there should be 99 instances of this, to provide an effectively endless supply of AMLA advancement. (It's simply a full heal +3 to max hp)
Jacobian wrote:(And magical fists? I wish they dealt regular impact damage instead... It doesn't make much difference either way, but with so many special traits and abilities--magic, poison, regeneration, cure, heal+8, and special AMLA advancements--it somehow feels like he's not a real unit. I'd prefer it if his fists did ordinary damage. Or perhaps there could be an explanation of how they came to be magical and deal so much damage? He's a healer and he's using his bare hands, but he's dealing more damage than some combat units with swords.)
Yeah, I hear ya. The original justification for making his attacks magical was derived from the fact that his focus is now on runecraft. So, I modeled him a little bit after the runesmith, which has a magical melee attack, and high resistances (the original justification for steadfast). But, like you said, he doesn't feel like a "real unit", so I think I'll take away the magical attack - he's meant to be more of a defensive/supplemental unit than one you'd take on the offensive. Good call.
Jacobian wrote:Now, I'm the kind of player who likes to build up an army over time. I like to strategize about the choice of units, and I enjoy watching them level up over time...

So it was frustrating for me to just get a working army under one player, and then have to switch over to a new leader with no units. If I'm going to have to continually start over, I'd at least like to have a few scenarios where I can enjoy my units first. Or... there should be kind of assurance that I'll eventually be able to play them again... someday.
Well, for the record, later on in the campaign, you get every unit back except for the ones you didn't work for - i.e. Derril's freebie guard that I gave you in scenario 2; they actually become enemies. But, you simply can't use them for a number of scenarios.
Jacobian wrote:The absolute most frustrating part was when my army under Aeryn's brother got assigned to an AI, who lead my units into a massacre...It was simply an exercise in frustration as I watched helplessly.
*nods* yeah, scenario 5 is probably not a favorite, from what I hear. And I can definitely understand why. As for Derril's self-massacre, I'll point out again that he only lost units that you didn't have to work for. Actually, that isn't completely true, as I'm sure you had a few level 3s advanced from the freebie level 2s, so some effort was involved. I specifically limited the number of scenarios in which you could use them (scenarios 2 & 3 only) so that the player would be forced to develop other troops as well.
Jacobian wrote:Then, all of my non-elvish units were taken away with Aeryn's brother! Even the ones that I had advanced from peasants under Aeryn. They owe no loyalty to his brother. Why would they leave now?
On the contrary, I'd say that most of the human troops (save those developed from peasants in sc. 1) are a part of Derril's army. In reality, they have no loyalty to Aeryn, whose only authority comes from the fact that he's Derril's brother. It makes perfect sense in my mind that a soldier would obey the "withdraw order" of his superior.
Jacobian wrote:And now I'm back to square one again, after having finally developed a nice army for Aeryn. Now that my first two armies are gone, I can build up a third new army of elves... but at this point I'm wondering if I'll even be able to keep them once Elrial's brother leaves.
Wait - first two armies? I'm trying to think of what those two separate armies would be. Afaik, there was only one army - Derril's - which could be recalled in every scenario from 1-5. The exception to this, of course, was Derril's personal guard, which travels with Derril wherever he goes. (I suppose another exception would be scenario 2, which temporarily suspends the rest of Derril's army. You get 'em all back in scenario 3, though.) Anyway, as I mentioned before, the one army that you've been developing will return in a later scenario, save Derril's Guard,

As for your prediction that you'll lose all troops when Eriad Leaves, you're almost dead on. Eriad doesn't leave - he's murdered. Then, all the elves leave you, and the player is forced to face the next scenario with only 1 unit - Aeryn. That scenario, however, becomes (in some ways) the turning point of the campaign. At the end of it, you get all your elvish recalls back, and a couple of scenarios down the road, you regain your old human recall list as well. So, while you face a lot of loss in the campaign, it's all temporary, and in the end all your hard, army-building work pays off. Is that any consolation?
Jacobian wrote:I haven't finished the campaign
neither have I ;-)
Max2008 wrote:but it looks like Elrial and Aeryn are attracted to each other... and doesn't that seem a little odd to anyone? The little brother dating a 50+ year old woman? And she's an elf: What would the elves think about one of the elvish kind dating a human? What would her *brother* think? He ought to have an opinion about it: He's supposed to be protective of her.
All good questions; hopefully I'll have enough storyline space to answer them all. For one, Aeryn & Elrial are, in fact, attracted to each-other, although there is a period of time in which Haldras does become a formidable love interest. Secondly, Elrial's age was discussed above, and in other posts; it shouldn't really be a huge obstacle. Thirdly, I think that the elves' reaction will cautious, but not overtly against such a union. The elves of Shalien (my small, invented forest from which Elrial and Eriad hail) will be all right with it, because they knew Elianna, the half-elf daughter of Tallin and Anita (from Northern Rebirth). The Northern elves will also approve of such a union, because Anita hails from that forest, although perhaps they'll disapprove of it for Haldras' sake. Fourthly, Eriad's gonna approve of Aeryn, because Aeryn watches over Elrial (although not oppressively like her brother).
Turuk wrote:As to letting her brother be protective of her for so long, that does not always diminish with age. Especially if they had a childhood relationship that focused strongly on the older sibling protecting the younger.
Well said; my thoughts precisely. And, to continue the Arwen example, Arwen was ancient, yet she still took part in a protective father/daughter relationship; with elves, the relationships of old may very well last through the ages to present day.
Jacobian wrote:Another thing: I think the older messenger sister would have been more offended at the way the king insulted her upon her arrival and then killed her. But she calls the greeting "pleasant" and departs on good terms after she is resurrected. The king left her dead for forty years and almost killed her loved ones as well. Shouldn't he be her mortal enemy by now??
That simply shows her depth of character. When she's resurrected, Elianna is clearly a tad pissed off (at least, I think it's clear. Is it not?). However, King Trent apologizes, and Elianna is gracious enough to forgive him. My reason for doing this is that I want King Trent to end up as a sympathetic character. He's made some bad choices,but ultimately he was a good king, and a credit to the line of Gerard. I think this is important, because eventually I'm gonna pit the line of Gerard against the line of Haldric, and I don't want to make it seem like "Haldric=good" and "Gerard=bad."
Jacobian wrote:And how would the rest of the elvish alliance react to seeing their ambassador killed on a courtesy mission?
Well, as Eriad mentioned in scenario 6, Elianna left Shalien without telling anyone. She wasn't representing Shalien, and as she noted earlier, she wasn't representing Knalga. She took this mission on herself, without the authority of any major group/force (aside from Eloh ;-). In fact, Eriad and Elrial are the only elves who know she's been killed; perhaps they kept Trent's involvement to themselves or something.
Jacobian wrote:And the king had her buried *there* just so she could get resurrected later? So they just put her in a coffin a left it a few feet from the castle all these years? I would have thought elves would come to take her home, or perhaps the humans would dispose of her body. If that's the case, perhaps the king could be visiting her at a cemetery near the castle when she climbs out of her sarcophagus? (Maybe that was the intention?)
Yeah, that was basically the intention. I placed her grave next to Etheran's, thinking that perhaps King Trent had waxed poetic, and buried the victim next to the (alleged) murderer. But I like your idea of expanding the grave; I think I'll add some more gravesights like you mentioned.
Jacobian wrote:I also think the dialogue for the king could be improved. A real leader who acts like this king wouldn't stay a king for very long, in my opinion. Perhaps he could be made more decisive, more diplomatic, and less quick to jump to conclusions? Just by changing his dialogue a little bit?
Okay, cool. Do you have any specific aspects of his dialogue that you can point out? I do want him to be a decisive leader, but not a diplomat - more like a totalitarian.
Jacobian wrote:While I'm thinking about the king: the river memorial to the king's fallen son is just a warning not to cross the river. Why would anyone put up a memorial like that? I mean, by the time they've put up his memorial, shouldn't the battle be over? So why the useless warning? Unless... you're crossing over into permanent orcish territory? But then why the memorial if you're actually marking a territorial boundary? Perhaps the memorial could instead say some words about the bravery of the fallen prince, and in the process, reveal the history, since it's important.
Good call; I didn't actually put a whole lot of thought into what the memorial said. Basically you're right, it does serve to separate the orcish territory north of the Glaaq from the wesnothian territory south of the Glaaq. But, since it is a memorial, I think you're definitely right in asserting that it should focus on Etheran's fall. I'll go change that.
Jacobian wrote:Anyway... I don't mean to be so critical. I loved the first scenario. It was very nicely done and added some interesting new strategy as well. I also realize that nobody has to make *any* scenarios. So: thank you, and I'm sorry for being so critical.
Don't worry about it; it's the critical ones that drive forward the quality. So, thanks for critiquing SoL, down to the smallest detail ;-).
--OSJ

Edit:
The king left her dead for forty years
I'm curious where the forty year impression came from; it's supposed to be twenty years. Let me know where the misconception comes from, so I can reword things. Thanks!
what if the Bible's claims about Christ depicted accurate, verifiable history? given some research, you might be surprised at the evidence...
opensourcejunkie
Posts: 547
Joined: August 11th, 2008, 3:19 pm

Re: Sceptre of Life, version 0.8.8

Post by opensourcejunkie »

Scenario 9 is out (halfway there! :-), and is up on the 1.5 server.
--OSJ
what if the Bible's claims about Christ depicted accurate, verifiable history? given some research, you might be surprised at the evidence...
Jacobian
Posts: 4
Joined: February 5th, 2009, 10:06 pm

Re: Sceptre of Life, version 0.9.0

Post by Jacobian »

Max2008 wrote:I've not heard many complaints about the relationship between Arwen and Aragorn in LOTR. Arwen was well over 2500 years when they married.
That seems fine to me. Arwen and Aragorn are both very mature.

It was mainly that Elrial and Aeryn seemed to identify so closely with each other, which didn't feel realistic if Elrial had long since entered a different stage of her life. Although the storyline does mention in several places that time doesn't have the same significance for elves.
opensourcejunkie wrote:Actually, Elrial is still relatively young when she met Aeryn. She was fifteen years old when Elianna gave the prophecy to Trent; add twenty years to that, and it puts her at 35.
Okay; it sounds like this is really not a problem!
opensourcejunkie wrote:
Jacobian wrote:He also has two instances of the cure ability.
there should be 99 instances of this, to provide an effectively endless supply of AMLA advancement. (It's simply a full heal +3 to max hp)
I guess what I mean is that Aeryn's abilities were something like: "cures, heals+8, cures, regenerates."
opensourcejunkie wrote:
Jacobian wrote: Now that my first two armies are gone, I can build up a third new army of elves... but at this point I'm wondering if I'll even be able to keep them once Elrial's brother leaves.
Wait - first two armies? I'm trying to think of what those two separate armies would be. Afaik, there was only one army - Derril's - which could be recalled in every scenario from 1-5. The exception to this, of course, was Derril's personal guard, which travels with Derril wherever he goes. (I suppose another exception would be scenario 2, which temporarily suspends the rest of Derril's army. You get 'em all back in scenario 3, though.) Anyway, as I mentioned before, the one army that you've been developing will return in a later scenario, save Derril's Guard,
I guess I'm counting Derril's personal guard as an army: If I remember right, he had a silver mage and about two of each level-two armored unit. I had advanced all of these to level three by the end of the mountain-pass scenario, and Derril was close to becoming a Grand Marshall.

In my mind, the other army was the one I was developing for Aeryn. Aeryn ended the first scenario with a very respectable force. Of the eight or so peasants that I considered to be non-expendable (the ones with the traits that I liked), all of them advanced to level one or level two. If remember right, by the end of the first scenario (after the killing blow to the enemy leader), Aeryn and I also gained one level-three unit, either a Royal Guard or a Master Bowman.

Part of my strategy was to send a small group of peasants to occupy the camp where Derril would appear, in order to occupy his base and interfere with his ability to recruit units, so that he wouldn't compete with us for experience points. We lost an expendable peasant that way, but the remaining two survived and successfully prevented Derril from recruiting anybody. :)

I considered all of these new units to be Aeryn's, because they were peasant civilians before Aeryn recruited them. Their upkeep was paid by the younger brother, and he was the one to lead them in battle and heal them. I figured they would remain loyal to him, because they had never been a part of the older brother's military group.

In the scenario with the earth mover, I had already captured all of the reachable villages for Aeryn, and I was not very happy when the peasants pledged their allegiance to us, and then immediately captured our red villages for Elrial's green team. They reduced our gold production to less than half (a third?) of what it would have been if they hadn't been there. I wanted to make sure they wouldn't get in our way again, so I sacrificed them to the saurians!

I felt really bad about it though! I always go to great lengths to protect all of the innocent peasants in other campaigns, but I just didn't feel like helping those peasants anymore. The saurians made short work of them in the swamps. It was pretty horrific. :/

On the other hand, their sacrifice allowed me to sneak in a group of baby level one mages. Our mages occupied the saurian base for the entire scenario, and we let the saurian leader survive, at least until the last turn. He never attacked us, and each turn he produced 0-2 new units for us to level up on, so we got a steady supply of experience points. That way, Aeryn gained an additional two white mages, a brother-and-sister pair of red mages, and we *almost* got a level-three silver mage as well by the end of the scenario. He was very close!

(The rest of Aeryn's army all reached level three, and we created three new Shock Troopers to help Aeryn with any sieges that might come up... thanks to the orcs streaming in across the river. Elrial got to watch the whole thing from the sidelines. We kept her safe, like we promised her brother we would.)

Anyway, I had an attachment to these guys... Then, when they all ran off with Derril's army later on, I felt like Aeryn had been betrayed. Derril's units: well, I can understand. They had to leave with their commanding officer. But I felt like Aeryn's units ought to have stayed with us.

If it were up to me, I think I would have Derril's units fighting on a separate allied side as an AI all along. Later on, we could fight with them, or against them, as dictacted by the plot. His guards are good level two units, so either way would interesting...

Then we could have only AI units be involved in the massacre at the river with the memorial to the king's son, so people wouldn't have to watch their as their own units are recalled and killed under an AI, while they watch helplessly from the sidelines. It would also be okay for people to recall some units to help: those units would be useful in a moment to help hold off the orcs that bearing down across the river. And if Derril's army were just AI units, rather than my own units, I wouldn't have wanted to quit at that point! I could watch Derril's entire army desert us, and it would be fun to see. At that point, we could move on to the elves.

Maybe you could also solve the problem of needing to be able to recruit higher-level elves for the next scenario this way. There would be at least *some* units still loyal to Aeryn. Those units could help carry us through the loss of Derril's units, to give us a chance to get a fresh elvish army going under Eriad. That would be a lot more satisfying, at least for me: We wouldn't be getting anything for free. We'd have to work for every one of our units, even the elvish ones.

Another possibility is in the earth mover scenario: Elrial and Aeryn could fight together on the same side (instead of being on separate allied sides). It works fine either way. I'm just thinking... from a storyline perspective: having them fight together on the same team (side by side) could be a way to make it feel like they're getting close.

From the gameplay perspective: It might help the scenario. In my opinion, anyway, it's a lot easier to fight when all your units can move on the same turn. Otherwise, about half of your units are standing frozen and a time and it can interfere with your maneuvering. Or: you might end up moving a wounded unit next to a healer on an allied side... only to have the battle shift away when its allies fight, so that by the start of the wounded unit's turn, the allied healer has had to move away and the wounded unit doesn't get healed.

Because of things like that, I ended up ignoring Elrial and her peasants when they had their own green side. She had to watch us from safety: I skipped over her turn each time it came around. But if she were on the same team as Aeryn, then we could have coordinated our units together and she would have been more useful... at least to me. Other people might prefer it differently... but I would have liked to have her fighting there alongside Aeryn.
opensourcejunkie wrote:
Jacobian wrote:I also think the dialogue for the king could be improved. A real leader who acts like this king wouldn't stay a king for very long, in my opinion. Perhaps he could be made more decisive, more diplomatic, and less quick to jump to conclusions? Just by changing his dialogue a little bit?
Okay, cool. Do you have any specific aspects of his dialogue that you can point out? I do want him to be a decisive leader, but not a diplomat - more like a totalitarian.
Well, he seemed to rely on the advice from his subordinates... Maybe his subjects could offer their unsolicited advice, in a persuasive way: as though afraid that the king might act against their interests. Then the king could come to fated conclusion on his own, for reasons that hadn't been mentioned by the advisor. That way, he wouldn't need to ask anyone what they would do in his place, but we could still see that the king has to give this some thought.
opensourcejunkie wrote:Edit:
The king left her dead for forty years
I'm curious where the forty year impression came from; it's supposed to be twenty years. Let me know where the misconception comes from, so I can reword things. Thanks!
Sorry, my mistake! I don't think you need to anything differently. It was all my mistake.

(I'm pretty sure this is why it happened though: At the start of the flashback, I must have felt like we were traveling back in time by 20 years, and then that we were traveling forwards in time by another 20 years, and my subconscious added them up: 20+20 = 40... Right? Well, it's not logical! But every once in a while I notice that I'm doing tiny calculations without realizing it. It's like I'm doing little math problems in the background. At least, once in a while, a number like an average or a sum will come to the surface without my ever having thought about it or even having wanted to know the answer. It wasn't logical to add there, but I guess I'm not really a logical person under the surface! I'm just amazed I can even do basic math...)
User avatar
docrock
Posts: 259
Joined: October 27th, 2007, 1:32 pm
Location: the wild southern forests of germany

Re: Sceptre of Life, version 0.9.0

Post by docrock »

playing on 1.5.9 with current version on default difficulty. so far just one thing: make Eriad passive (Politician's Plunder). he's a pest to keep alive. and as things are, with his insane movement he will go for every (yea, every) enemy unit in his range, which does make him pretty suicidal when the supporting 4-6 wolf riders do close in.

edit: the very same goes for "Overprotective". why do those peasants think they can go into like 30 orcs and survive? ok, it might be something with the 1.5.9 ad (artificial dumbness), but ... once again i had to debug and change them to my side to at least get one of them out alive.
Last edited by docrock on February 9th, 2009, 4:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Postings may contain traces of sense.
The ministry of health warns:
Living is dangerous to your health and may finally result in death.
You are a Dwarvish Berserker: you're freaking crazy and enjoy it. (100% ...)
CMaster
Posts: 55
Joined: December 7th, 2008, 2:25 pm

Re: Sceptre of Life, version 0.9.0

Post by CMaster »

This promisses to become the best campaign, I've seen so far! Fantastic work!

What I liked about this campaign:

!. First of all: It's a really intriguing story line! Love it!

2. I like the way you play around with terrain: The melting snow and flooding in scenario 1 for example, the ice bridges and the earth-mover. The entrance to Burin's cave is another neat example.

3. A wide variety of special effects: The northern lights, Burin's keep, the sparing grounds, just to mention a few.

4. I really loved the cutscene with the prophecy! She acts exactly like you would expect a prophet to act. And the resurection is just cool! (I understand however, that people who don't believe themselves might have some trouble understanding her motivation...)

5. The exit of the chief orc in scenario 7 is another cool highlight!


What still needs some work:

1. Neither the brazier, nor the monolith at the northern lights, nor the ice bridge in the same map draw enough attention. The monolith should be easy to remedy, just take a different picture. The ice bridge could be hinted in a dialog triggered when a unit moves near the lake.

2. I miss something in the center of the isle (scenario 2). What's the point of the ice bridge, if there's nothing to be seen? I assume this is already on your todo list...

3. It feels a bit awkward, that the player is controling different leaders in different scenarios. However, I don't believe this must be changed, and before you bent your story beyond recognition, I think it's good as it is. Aeryn is with the player side at all times after all, so there's at least one constant element.

4. From what I read in this thread, there are some people who don't like scenario 5. I think, it would apeace them, if the player could control Derrils troops at the beginning, allowing him to saveguard the units he cares for. (Though I must say, Jacobean, you do have a peculiar playing style...)

5. In the cutscene with the prophecy, the player gets a somewhat awkward dialog, asking if he wishes to continue the campaign. Is the win condition set correctly?

6. In Ulbridge it is perfectly possible to spare the goblin settlement until the win condition forces you to kill their leader, making Elrials scolding a bit unfair. Is it necessary for your story, that Aeryn slaughters those goblins? If not, it would be good, if you leave the choice to the player, with all consequences.

However, if the story requires such a bad character, it would be best if the player was forced to do what you want by tactical neccessities rather than the win condition of the scenario. I know, this is what you've been trying to do, but it fails. My first thought was to place a rather tough orcish leader a the northern end of the western bridge, who's not withdrawn until the goblins are dead. But that wouldn't work either, since the player must have enough forces to defeat all the orcs, so he could simply defeat that fat orc first and blow up the bridge afterwards.

7. Those monsters you use to punch the holes into the fog at Ulbridge make it to the recall list of the player...
I'm a reciever!
User avatar
docrock
Posts: 259
Joined: October 27th, 2007, 1:32 pm
Location: the wild southern forests of germany

Re: Sceptre of Life, version 0.9.0

Post by docrock »

on BfW 1.5.9 in "Alone Time" i get the following error when trying to load a savegame:
Clipboard03.jpg
for completeness, here also the savegame in question:
SOL-Alone_Time_Turn_13.gz
(82.7 KiB) Downloaded 231 times
edit: ahh, it's Nia 'Kelan. removed the blank and the apostrophe from his tags and all went well again.
Postings may contain traces of sense.
The ministry of health warns:
Living is dangerous to your health and may finally result in death.
You are a Dwarvish Berserker: you're freaking crazy and enjoy it. (100% ...)
opensourcejunkie
Posts: 547
Joined: August 11th, 2008, 3:19 pm

Re: Sceptre of Life, version 0.9.0

Post by opensourcejunkie »

wow - there's so much to reply to! First of all, I've compiled a list of things I've gleaned from the past few posts which will be changed in the upcoming bugfix version. I'll place a plus (+) sign next to each one as it's completed:

- in scenario 5, change Derril to a human-controlled player
- in Scenario 8, find a better way to force the slaughter of Krax
- remove the scenario 8 fog clearers from the recall list
- in scenario 2, make Eriad passive
- make it easier to keep peasants alive in scenario 3 (?)
- increase the Rune Healer resistances
- remove "magical" weapon special from Rune Healer's fists
- expand the graveyard in scenario 6
- in scenario 5, make Etheran's memorial more of a memorial
- remove non-alphanumeric characters from all variables
- in scenario 2, recall Burin after a few turns


Those are the aspects I'll definitely change; there are a few others which I'm not as keen on/may require some more discussion.
CMaster wrote:It feels a bit awkward, that the player is controling different leaders in different scenarios. However, I don't believe this must be changed, and before you bent your story beyond recognition, I think it's good as it is. Aeryn is with the player side at all times after all, so there's at least one constant element.
Jacobian wrote:I considered all of these new units to be Aeryn's, because they were peasant civilians before Aeryn recruited them. Their upkeep was paid by the younger brother, and he was the one to lead them in battle and heal them. I figured they would remain loyal to him, because they had never been a part of the older brother's military group.
Yeah, the leadership structure is definitely different from most other campaigns I've experienced; that was intentional. When I first wrote SoL down on paper, I wanted to present a story in which the main character wasn't the leader of any major force or militia, etc. Rather, his military power would be directly dependent on his relationships with those in power. That way, when those relationships advance or decline, his power would also advance or decline.

One reason I wrote SoL this way is because I wanted to bring Aeryn to a place where he is completely abandoned, and therefore completely impotent. He'll be presented with a choice to also give up/go home, or to press on, against all odds. Then, because of his choice to persevere, those who abandoned him will return again, and Irdya as we know it will be permanently changed for the better. Essentially, "the choice of one man, under the most unreasonable circumstances, will set in motion a history that will affect us all."

So, in order to achieve this affect, I do need all humans to abandon him in sc. 5, and I need all elves to abandon him in sc. 10. Those two points are fairly non-negotiable. And in my mind, I think it would be pretty hard to convince a wesnothian (no matter how attached to Aeryn) to oppose their king, and join up with the elves, especially when their home town has already been (apparently) secured. Aeryn isn't the only person who holds their loyalty; so do their families and their king. So, while I can definitely see where you're coming from - wanting to keep your hard-earned troops throughout the entire campaign - I'm gonna have to say no to leaving them in. sorry :-/.
Jacobian wrote:I guess what I mean is that Aeryn's abilities were something like: "cures, heals+8, cures, regenerates."
Oh, right :-P my bad. I was thinking AMLA, not abilities. This bug was brought up before, and I couldn't for the life of me figure out where the duplicate ability was coming from. If anyone's seen a similar error before (preferably with a solution), please post it. This one's got me stumped.
Jacobian wrote:Part of my strategy was to send a small group of peasants to occupy the camp where Derril would appear, in order to occupy his base and interfere with his ability to recruit units, so that he wouldn't compete with us for experience points. We lost an expendable peasant that way, but the remaining two survived and successfully prevented Derril from recruiting anybody.
Nice! :-) I was wondering how you advanced so many so high. That reminds me of lastjuan's strategy in scenario 2.
Jacobian wrote:In the scenario with the earth mover, I had already captured all of the reachable villages for Aeryn, and I was not very happy when the peasants pledged their allegiance to us, and then immediately captured our red villages for Elrial's green team. They reduced our gold production to less than half (a third?) of what it would have been if they hadn't been there. I wanted to make sure they wouldn't get in our way again, so I sacrificed them to the saurians!
Well, watch out - the green team comes back in scenario 13 and helps you out when you're in a pinch. If you starve them of experience and gold, they may not be able to help you as much.
Jacobian wrote:And if Derril's army were just AI units, rather than my own units, I wouldn't have wanted to quit at that point! I could watch Derril's entire army desert us, and it would be fun to see. At that point, we could move on to the elves.
Wow - I'm sorry I made you want to quit! Of course, that part is supposed to be painful (though not debilitatingly so) and not specifically "fun", but rather sad. I was hoping that the player would feel some of the pain that Aeryn feels, and while it seems that I've succeeded, I definitely don't want to aggrivate the player to the point of abandonment.

I am sorry that scenario 5 hits you so hard, and I'm open to any possible way of mitigating the pain. But I hope you understand why I can't send Northern Fist troops north of the Glaaq with Aeryn; the storyline centers on Aeryn's perseverance through abandonment. Changing that would undermine a core element of the story.
Jacobian wrote:Another possibility is in the earth mover scenario: Elrial and Aeryn could fight together on the same side (instead of being on separate allied sides). It works fine either way. I'm just thinking... from a storyline perspective: having them fight together on the same team (side by side) could be a way to make it feel like they're getting close.

From the gameplay perspective: It might help the scenario. In my opinion, anyway, it's a lot easier to fight when all your units can move on the same turn. Otherwise, about half of your units are standing frozen and a time and it can interfere with your maneuvering. Or: you might end up moving a wounded unit next to a healer on an allied side... only to have the battle shift away when its allies fight, so that by the start of the wounded unit's turn, the allied healer has had to move away and the wounded unit doesn't get healed.

Because of things like that, I ended up ignoring Elrial and her peasants when they had their own green side. She had to watch us from safety: I skipped over her turn each time it came around. But if she were on the same team as Aeryn, then we could have coordinated our units together and she would have been more useful... at least to me. Other people might prefer it differently... but I would have liked to have her fighting there alongside Aeryn.
I'll have to think about this one. There are definitely advantages and disadvantages to each approach; I remember reading a while ago about a player who used the green team to offer a one-two punch at the orcs as he was crossing the Glaaq. But they can definitely get in the way; this I know (an have experienced :-). Anyone else have any thoughts on the matter?
Jacobian wrote:Well, he seemed to rely on the advice from his subordinates... Maybe his subjects could offer their unsolicited advice, in a persuasive way: as though afraid that the king might act against their interests. Then the king could come to fated conclusion on his own, for reasons that hadn't been mentioned by the advisor. That way, he wouldn't need to ask anyone what they would do in his place, but we could still see that the king has to give this some thought.
Well, for the record, King Trent did put some of his own thought into the matter. He questioned the motive behind Lady Jessica's advice, and though he ultimately agreed with her suggestion, he took precautions to separate Jessica from the Sceptre.

Nevertheless I think there's merit to what you're saying. I may try to revisit the scenario and reword some dialogue, but it's gonna be a last priority compared to everything else.
Jacobian wrote:Sorry, my mistake! I don't think you need to anything differently. It was all my mistake...I'm just amazed I can even do basic math...
Einstein failed math - always remember that. (It's what I kept telling myself throughout school, anyway :-)
docrock wrote:edit: the very same goes for "Overprotective". why do those peasants think they can go into like 30 orcs and survive? ok, it might be something with the 1.5.9 ad (artificial dumbness), but ... once again i had to debug and change them to my side to at least get one of them out alive.
Hey, Docrock - were you having trouble keeping them alive before you first reached them, or after? Because keeping them alive isn't a victory condition after you first dialogue with them. If you weren't even able to get to them, though, then I'll definitely have to alter the scenario.
CMaster wrote:Neither the brazier, nor the monolith at the northern lights, nor the ice bridge in the same map draw enough attention. The monolith should be easy to remedy, just take a different picture. The ice bridge could be hinted in a dialog triggered when a unit moves near the lake.
Yeah, these were all meant to be bonus features for the player who pays extra attention. But, I think you may be right about the ice bridge - that's a bit obscure. Perhaps (once I actually implement the bonus feature) I'll throw in some dialogue about how there's only one patch of snow-forest or something.
CMaster wrote:I miss something in the center of the isle (scenario 2). What's the point of the ice bridge, if there's nothing to be seen? I assume this is already on your todo list...
Yeah...that feature was originally going to be something spectacular that depended on a 1.5 feature, but I couldn't find the promised 1.5 feature when I looked, so I may have to change it to something else. I'm thinking that the Knalga's purpose of creating the fortress might have been to guard the Hammer of Thursagen. As of now, Burin brings it along on the trip (albeit without using it and without the others' knowledge), but perhaps I'll place the hammer on the isle, and Burin will be able to use it if he's goes to the isle in-game. At any rate, it's a decision I'll reserve until the campaign is complete.
CMaster wrote:From what I read in this thread, there are some people who don't like scenario 5. I think, it would apeace them, if the player could control Derrils troops at the beginning, allowing him to saveguard the units he cares for. (Though I must say, Jacobean, you do have a peculiar playing style...)
Props for creativity, though. As for the human-controlled idea, I think that's a very good idea. I'll put that into the next bugfix.
CMaster wrote:In the cutscene with the prophecy, the player gets a somewhat awkward dialog, asking if he wishes to continue the campaign. Is the win condition set correctly?
Yeah, this seems to be a 1.5 bug (which I still have to submit; thanks for the reminder). For now, we just have to bear with it.
CMaster wrote:In Ulbridge it is perfectly possible to spare the goblin settlement until the win condition forces you to kill their leader, making Elrials scolding a bit unfair. Is it necessary for your story, that Aeryn slaughters those goblins? If not, it would be good, if you leave the choice to the player, with all consequences.

However, if the story requires such a bad character, it would be best if the player was forced to do what you want by tactical neccessities rather than the win condition of the scenario. I know, this is what you've been trying to do, but it fails. My first thought was to place a rather tough orcish leader a the northern end of the western bridge, who's not withdrawn until the goblins are dead. But that wouldn't work either, since the player must have enough forces to defeat all the orcs, so he could simply defeat that fat orc first and blow up the bridge afterwards.
Well first of all, I think that it is necessary for Aeryn to slaughter the settlement. It wasn't in the original script, but I added it to help sell a later development. Basically, in scenario 10, Eriad is murdered, Haldras blames Aeryn, and Elrial believes Haldras. Without Aeryn's moral lapse in scenario 8, calling Aeryn a murderer will be a hard sell, and Elrial's abandonment will be harder still.

So I think that this does definitely need to happen, although if you can think of another way to lend credibility to Aeryn's capacity for murder, I'm all ears. Assuming that the slaughter does need to happen, then like you observed, I need a way to force the player's hand (preferably before the victory condition)

The way I attempted to do this was by giving the orcs an unlimited supply of gold. Basically, the orcs and the humans (south of the river) have their gold set to 400 at the beginning of each turn, until Krax is taken over. The number of units allowed on the field are limited, but the gold, effectively speaking, is not.

However, I suppose that it's still possible to press the attack hard enough that the orcish leader is killed in spite of his advantage. So, I need a way to ensure that he won't be killed until everyone in Krax is dead.

The first way that comes to mind is a bit of a hack, but it gets the job done. Basically, I could use a testing macro I made a while back to make the orc invincible until Krax is taken over. Like I said, it's a hack, but I can't think of any other way to make absolutely certain that the orc isn't killed before his time. If anyone can think of a more elegant solution though, I'm all ears.
CMaster wrote:Those monsters you use to punch the holes into the fog at Ulbridge make it to the recall list of the player...
Yeah, I gotta fix that. Shouldn't be hard.
CMaster wrote:This promisses to become the best campaign, I've seen so far! Fantastic work!
Thanks! Glad to hear you like it.
docrock wrote:on BfW 1.5.9 in "Alone Time" i get the following error when trying to load a savegame...edit: ahh, it's Nia 'Kelan. removed the blank and the apostrophe from his tags and all went well again.
Aaah, I get the same thing with "Burin the Innovator" later on. I think 1.4 was more forgiving of this mistake; I'll have to go back through and fix my variables so they're without spaces.

--OSJ
what if the Bible's claims about Christ depicted accurate, verifiable history? given some research, you might be surprised at the evidence...
User avatar
docrock
Posts: 259
Joined: October 27th, 2007, 1:32 pm
Location: the wild southern forests of germany

Re: Sceptre of Life, version 0.9.0

Post by docrock »

Hey, Docrock - were you having trouble keeping them alive before you first reached them, or after?
before i reached them, though i have to admit i tried out some rather awkward tactics in that attempt which led to myself obviously missing the triggers for the dialogue that changed objectives. in a later try i changed tactics and promptly everything went fine. so basically, the player should not try to distract the enemy in the south with speedy troops and surround them me thinks but instead go straight for the peasants before they can commit any insanities while just holding out at the edge of the forest.
Postings may contain traces of sense.
The ministry of health warns:
Living is dangerous to your health and may finally result in death.
You are a Dwarvish Berserker: you're freaking crazy and enjoy it. (100% ...)
opensourcejunkie
Posts: 547
Joined: August 11th, 2008, 3:19 pm

Re: Sceptre of Life, version 0.9.0

Post by opensourcejunkie »

Couldn't you do both? The only units you really need to go north are Aeryn and Elrial (and Burin, if you have'im). The rest of your troops could be diverted to perform whatever strategy you like. (unless of course Elrial && Aeryn were part of the circling attempt)

At any rate, do you think I need to change anything about the scenario, or is it fine the way it is? Thanks for the feedback,
--OSJ
what if the Bible's claims about Christ depicted accurate, verifiable history? given some research, you might be surprised at the evidence...
User avatar
docrock
Posts: 259
Joined: October 27th, 2007, 1:32 pm
Location: the wild southern forests of germany

Re: Sceptre of Life, version 0.9.0

Post by docrock »

actually yes, the right and proper way to play this scenario is definitely to send the elves and burin up to the peasants and that yet-to-be-fortification straight away. after that it's easy to hold the forest border in the east until the enemy is thinned out enough to go full assault.

another sidenote: i levelled Aeryn to a Rune Healer and he now has lost regeneration but gained 2x cure ability? not sure if this has been posted before though, guess somebody already did if i remember correctly. also, is there a quick savegame hack for this? i would not like to play through the last scenario again as i levelled him on the last turn ...
Postings may contain traces of sense.
The ministry of health warns:
Living is dangerous to your health and may finally result in death.
You are a Dwarvish Berserker: you're freaking crazy and enjoy it. (100% ...)
Post Reply