Some Balancing Changes

[miq]

Hi,

I appreciate that work on balancing is done especially for northerner costs seemed a bit low. I also like that the changes are relatively conservative.

*BUT* I would suggest to make only one change to a unit a a time. If you change many things at once it is very likely to cause an imbalance and will need further changes in the future. Also, the cause for the imbalance cannot be identified easily because the change of power consists of several changed aspects (cost, attack number, attack damage, etc.).

So for the ulfserker for instance I would suggest not to raise the attack to 5-4. In MP they are useful as they are. Of course, you have to take care of them, pick easy targets and so on. But you get certain kills which is a very nice effect. Now, if they cannot be killed that easy with a elvish fighter in forest for example due to berzerk on defend they are getting quite a bit stronger.

The changes on the assassin make the unit far less useful perhaps almost useless...

Please consider being even more conservative in the way of only changing one aspect of a unit at a time.

bxe Miq

[quartex]

From the liberal persepective:

I don't think making the assassin a bit more expensive and making his ranged attack a bit weaker makes one of the most powerful units in the game almost useless. Poison can be very powerful, especially against dwarves, and all we have done is to keep his attack powerful, but make the change of hitting more random.

I don't understand why people are so worried about the new ulfserker. The ulfserker's melee attack is the same as many other level 1 units, all his ability allows him to do is to capitalize on vulnerable units. If you have a line of strong fighters on good defensive terrain then they will still waste the ulfzerker. Having him only berserk on attack means that he actually had a chance at defending, he can still be easily taken down with ranged units.

I also think we shouldn't have to limit ourselves to one change per unit, I understand the logic of having a control variable and the scientific method, but editing units is not a science. There is no perfect way to rank the reletive power of the units (although people have tried), the only way we can test changes is by seeing how they perform in-game. Limiting ourselves to one change per unit is awefully slow, and unnecessary, if a unit becomes too powerful we can always make it weaker again.

Besides, a unit's strength or weaknesses can be greatly exacerbated by the strategy a player uses. For instance poor defensive strategy can make one player's army be decimated by ulfzerkers, but all ulfzerkers do is just speed up the normal combat sequence. They are powerful assassins against exposed units, but I don't think they are game-breakers.

[pg]

I don't understand why people are so worried about the new ulfserker. The ulfserker's melee attack is the same as many other level 1 units, all his ability allows him to do is to capitalize on vulnerable units. If you have a line of strong fighters on good defensive terrain then they will still waste the ulfzerker. Having him only berserk on attack means that he actually had a chance at defending, he can still be easily taken down with ranged units.

Yes, it's true Ulf's will have a hard time vs certain melee units but they make short work of many units very efficiently. They can literally tear through range units, and even some weaker melee units like trolls they can beat pretty badly. I imagine once this is change goes through using all Ulfs as Knalgans will be a valid strategy but I could be wrong.

[Jetrel]

*BUT* I would suggest to make only one change to a unit a a time.

A very legitimate concern, supported by sound arguments.

However, I agree with Quartex that we do not have the time, not by a long shot. I think this change will be a good shot in the right direction. If we overshoot, it will be a easy step back to snip away some of the changes, but I don't think that will be necessary at all.


Part of the real problem is not that the assassins should be expensive, and overpowered, or whatnot, it's that a player should be coerced to have Orcish Grunts as the core of an Orcish faction, just as a player is quite readily coerced to have elvish fighters as the core of an elvish faction.

Right now, "specialty" units like the troll whelp, the goblin wolf rider, and the orcish assassin, vastly outnumber the general usage of the orcish grunt. "That ain't right."

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One of the major balance problems over in Warcraft land, that existed in warcraft I and II, was that tier 2 units (ex: knight) were always preferable to tier 1 units (ex: footman). This worked for gameplay, but was just fricken wrong.

In warcraft III, they quite beautifully fixed this, and now it is quite feasible to field a force of tier-1 troops against tier-2 (ex: a force of footmen led by a paladin can fight an equal-in-terms-of-upkeep force of knights led by a paladin on equal terms).

Now, it makes perfect sense for the knights to lead a charge of their fellow soldiers, just like they would have in medieval times. Rather than fielding an army consisting completely of knights, which would have some severe strategic weaknesses in the real world.
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Wesnoth should be structured so that an army consisting only of "special" troops is severely weak in some way. It usually is, thankfully, but in the case of the northerners, there is a little bit of ironing out that we need to do.

[Dragonking]

Remember that strong ulf will have 6-4 attack. Some people on MP almost mastered using of ulf's, and they are really good at advancing this unit. Ulf is strong now, and no-berserk at defence + 5-4 (6-4) makes him much more powerful. You wouldn't need to take care of blocking every hex aroud him to prvent from killing ulf with many xp points. IMO just one of those two changes should be added. Please consider that.

I agrre that roll whelp is too cheap now, but to change price and dmg od assasin is IMO a little too much. Poison IS powerful, but only if you can hit something - so to poison 3 dwarwes on mountains with 70% defence, or elvish archer in fores I will need army of assasins - ah, but it will cost too much now. I don't understand - assasin IS good, but not so hard to kill with his "-" almost to everything and not many hp. And now will be much more easer kill him - just put mage in place with nice defence and u can have high chance that he wouldn't get poisoned

Right now, "specialty" units like the troll whelp, the goblin wolf rider, and the orcish assassin, vastly outnumber the general usage of the orcish grunt. "That ain't right."

I don't agree. On MP players use grunt often - better defence than troll, cheaper that wolf and do more dmg than it, so It's best unit to defend village. Also during day he still can do serious damage, while whelp sucks

[Noy]

Howdy people.

This is my first post on the forum, but I'd like you to hear me out, because I've been playing multiplayer constantly for the better part of six months with people like Miq, Dragon King, ZDZ, pikel, soliton and others. I'd like to say I think some of these proposed changes, while made in the best intentions, will in fact unbalance the game, especially for the Knalgans.

That's the idea. The Ulfserker is an expensive unit which was hitherto useless because there was no way of keeping it alive. It should be a more practical unit now.

If it turns out that the Ulfserker is now too powerful, it'll be toned down somewhat, possibly in the hitpoints and resistances department. However, that can't be determined until people have played some games using the modified Ulfserker.

Okay I'm sorry sangel, I highly disagree with what you said in the first part of your post. Right now in multiplayer the Ulf is the best lvl 1 unit in my and others opinions. When used correctly (ie putting it on a mountain) it guarantees a kill each time or at very least it deals enough damage so that it can be taken out easily. NO other unit can do that. You watch enough multiplayer games, and the ulf is the most feared unit. It needs the weakness of having to engage in bezerk while in defence, because otherwise its going to be a monster. Its a major weakness that needs to be there to be exploited so to balance out an extremely effective unit.

This is basically the difference with the ulf now, and what will happen.

Ulf now. Goes and gets to mid to low HP after killing a full unit. somebody counterattack, and bezerk kills the ulf even after a few lucky hits. The ulf has already killed a unit, so really its cost benefit (depending on what it killed) isn't that bad.

Ulf future. Ulf gets to low hp, but gets a lucky roll or two and ulf gets away. runs back and gets healed. Four turns later the ulf goes back and kills another unit... its now waay more effective than other units at killling.

The Current nature of ulfs requires an intelligent approach to how to use it. Its not a fighter that you just send out into the open to deal damage. I think of it as the Knalgan special unit, like a mage. you don't send it out in front, but keep it in the back for special times.

I know there is a lot of talk that the knalgans are under powered. I'd like to say two things about this. The first reason why they are has nothing to do with their units, its the maps they are forced to play on. Most multiplayer maps have disproportionate amounts of forest or flat terrain... which makes them unsuitable for using Dwarves. Second, I think its folly to make the Knalgan's best unit even more monsterous to balance them out. One suggestion that has been tossed around during games is to give dwarvish fighters a axe to throw or something... like a 8-1, or 4-2 like a Spearman. Knalgans have an anemic ranged attack and this would help give them a more balanced profile.


As for the Assasin, I'd like to echo Dragon King's statements. The unit is basically a hi defence posion factory, likely the best unit that the Orcs have. That is all the unit is good for. hell even if it did 1-3 it would still be useful, as its posion is a vital aspect of the overall orc strategy (especially against certain units like stalwarts and Elves in forest). however making it 4-2 degrades its effectiveness in doing so by decreasing its chances of strike and dealing poison.

Sorry about the editing

[turin]

That's the idea. The Ulfserker is an expensive unit which was hitherto useless because there was no way of keeping it alive. It should be a more practical unit now.

If it turns out that the Ulfserker is now too powerful, it'll be toned down somewhat, possibly in the hitpoints and resistances department. However, that can't be determined until people have played some games using the modified Ulfserker.

Okay I'm sorry sangel, I highly disagree with what you said in the first part of your post. Right now in multiplayer the Ulf is the best lvl 1 unit in my and others opinions. When used correctly (ie putting it on a mountain) it guarantees a kill each time or at very least it deals enough damage so that it can be taken out easily. NO other unit can do that. You watch enough multiplayer games, and the ulf is the most feared unit. It needs the weakness of having to engage in bezerk while in defence, because otherwise its going to be a monster. Its a major weakness that needs to be there to be exploited so to balance out an extremely effective unit.

Yeah, if its on a mountain it will win, but rarely can you put it on a mountain. ANd when you do, the opponent just walks around the mountain. They don't HAVE to engage your forces there.

I know there is a lot of talk that the knalgans are under powered. I'd like to say two things about this. The first reason why they are has nothing to do with their units, its the maps they are forced to play on. Most multiplayer maps have disproportionate amounts of forest or flat terrain... which makes them unsuitable for using Dwarves. Second, I think its folly to make the Knalgan's best unit even more monsterous to balance them out. One suggestion that has been tossed around during games is to give dwarvish fighters a axe to throw or something... like a 8-1, or 4-2 like a Spearman. Knalgans have an anemic ranged attack and this would help give them a more balanced profile.

This is because in real life forest IS more common than mountains. Most maps will continue to have more forest and grassland, because that way it is mroe realistic.

It is true that, in mountains, ulfserkers kick ass, but mountains are intentionally rare. So ulfserkers DO need an upgrade in order to actually be useful on most maps.

As for the Assasin, I'd like to echo Dragon King's statements. The unit is basically a hi defence posion factory, likely the best unit that the Orcs have. That is all the unit is good for. hell even if it did 1-3 it would still be useful, as its posion is a vital aspect of the overall orc strategy (especially against certain units like stalwarts and Elves in forest). however making it 4-2 degrades its effectiveness in doing so by decreasing its chances of strike and dealing poison.

Yeah, that is basically the point of this change.

[Noy]

This is because in real life forest IS more common than mountains. Most maps will continue to have more forest and grassland, because that way it is mroe realistic.

It is true that, in mountains, ulfserkers kick ass, but mountains are intentionally rare. So ulfserkers DO need an upgrade in order to actually be useful on most maps.

Again you claim that the ulf is underpowered... its compeltely not. Ask any of the long term Multiplayer players, people that have played hundreds of games, and they all agree that the ULF is the best Knalgan unit, maybe the best unit at level 1 of all the races. Take this example. Don't think of the Ulf as a fighter unit, but as a special unit like the mage. Its got a high, special attack, but terrible defence. You don;t go sending your mage in the front of your battleline, so why should you do it with your ulfzerker? The ulf almost ensures that you kill the unit you attack each time even on poor terrain for it. Hills, villages, whatever. Its weakness is in counterattack, which I think is perfectly acceptable. I fundamentally disagree that its a worthless unit. I think its the fighter that needs an upgrade.

If you upgrade the Ulf, you'll just further conceal problems with the knalgans, like their poor distance attacks. Its not the ulf that is bad, its the team supporting it.

[Dragonking]

This is because in real life forest IS more common than mountains. Most maps will continue to have more forest and grassland, because that way it is mroe realistic.

It is true that, in mountains, ulfserkers kick ass, but mountains are intentionally rare. So ulfserkers DO need an upgrade in order to actually be useful on most maps.

So you are talking that not only ulf, but ALL dwarwes are weak and need upgrade, to be useful - cause all have 30% on grassland/forest?

Don't think of the Ulf as a fighter unit, but as a special unit like the mage. Its got a high, special attack, but terrible defence. You don;t go sending your mage in the front of your battleline, so why should you do it with your ulfzerker?

Nothing more to add. I agrre that fighter could be better - why Fighter has 30% on grassland? Is he so clumsy? I don't think so. And I agree that ranged attack (like nice axe throw) would help a lot

[cobretti]

With berserk active on defense (BAD from now ), ulfserkers are too vulnerable, and that is a major drawback for an expensive unit: You already can't afford a lot of them, even less lose them because your enemy managed to get ONE free hex next to him and started using the corpse-against-paladin attack with his cheap units.

Also, with BAD there is a problem with XP: Even if you only need one experience point to level him, you can't make a position where he can be attacked but not killed, so he gets the point on defense. You have to launch him, kill a unit, levelling up, and then pray to be able to completely surround him, so you don't lose him in the next turn (This was the case when berserkers were an upgrade of the fighter and not their own line. Almost nobody used them because level 2 units are not so easy to get).

And, what kind of hope can they have outside mountains with BAD? Any fast unit can reach them and force a fight to the death, choosing what time of day to use and probably with better defense.

With a berserk attack, you are mostly gambling, since there is no possible draw. With BAD you also gamble in defense: A berserk is invalidated as a defensive unit, since every time it is in an important place it absorbs the cannon fodder attacks until it is dead, and them your enemies can exploit that hole with their heavy hitters.

Every unit has some vulnerabilities and some strengths, and you just have to learn how to exploit them, both when you use them or when you defend against them. Berserker units' strengths are quite obvious, but you should be aware that, apart from normal vulnerabilities, BAD turns their main strength into a major vulnerability.

[themroc]

Hi everyone,

i must tell that knalgan is my dearest faction, and they are in no way too weak, if these changes will be made, they are unbeatable. In all races there are some "weak" professions, and everyone can master the special abilities.
In MP you must master strategy with youre factions and knalgan is powerful, even on "blitz", they can win and this is, for me, a elvish friendly map.
The onliest change that is truly necessary is to give an thief the backstab ability with an allied player in MP.
As for the other changes i agree with miq, dragonking and noy, just i am not really a professional to play Northerners.

cya
them

[Big Bad Joe]

I spent some time playing with Noyhauser, Dragonking and others on the MP server and I must admit that Knalgans are good MP faction..
To Ulfserker: I totally agree with the posts above - change just attack to 5 - 4 - it still be enough to make Ulf much more powerfull. The no berserk in defence change will make Ulf real slayer of melee weak units, and If implemeted - all players will play just Knalgans.
As DK said: You must take Ulf as exchange unit - attack enemy, kill it and you are dead in the next turn against experienced players, but it is still worth the prize ( mage slayer, opener of ZoCed areas).. If you want to make Ulf more powerful just put down the prize by 1 or 2 g...
Do not really understand the rebalancing of assasins - they are ok just now - not able to kill, just use poison - I think that you devs are overrating the power of poison - in MP units are dying so so quickly - poison is not that great..
I have a discussion on the MP server with some residents there and I will be very happy to see more "just forums" people there to show their ideas in reality - I have never seen Turin, Dave, Kamahawk,Simons Mith and a lot of others there and the residents of MP neither. How can you make your "wise" decisions ??
So I am just supporting the rejection of overpowering Ulfs and trying to show existing gap between MP players and forum people... I hope this post will help to find new level of comunication between prax and theory
NO OFFENCE MEANT..

[Dave]

I play on the multiplayer sever from time to time, though I usually (thought not always) use a pseudonym there, because I like discussing aspects of the game with people I play with and getting their honest answers without them thinking I'm the lead developer. If someone thinks something is unfair or bad in the game, I like hearing about it.

Also, orcish assassins are powerful because they are difficult to hit, as well as being able to poison easily. I've had this experience myself when playing, and people I've played with have concurred.

David

[Big Bad Joe]

Dave sorry to be that open - but is there a chance that you willl change your opinion on Ulfs? We are just trying to get attention in this. I am usually Knalgan player, DK the same...

[Dave]

Dave sorry to be that open - but is there a chance that you willl change your opinion on Ulfs?

Sure. There's a very high chance. We will try the Ulfserker's new stats for a release, and if they are overpowering we will reduce their power.

David